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open ocean capeable living space bubble

Home Forums Archive TSI Engineering open ocean capeable living space bubble

This topic contains 85 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 2 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 86 total)
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  • #11934

    Jason, the pool of photos that are “declassified by our internal censorship process” to show on internet is a bit limited i give you that – we need to restrict photos for the reasons detailled (here) – the best summary of official photos is this one – photogallery-

    The closest thing to a tour of the 200 ton sub we are currently building for Ian are the video collection at youtube ( video collection submarine habitat )

    The sweet spot of speed for (part) submerged economic long distance ocean cruising is in the range of the cruising speed of a whale 5-7 knots studies of whale energetics suggest that a 200 ton whale uses some 50 HP for locomotion and body functions.

    So we will be fine with a car sized engine in a sub habitat of 200 tons covering both locomotion and consumer electrics. This is a ridiculous small engine for a 200 ton surface boat (a 600 HP engine would be recommended for a motor sailer) – you would never get the bow into the wind in a storm – for a submerged living space bubble it works just fine.

    We will optimize the propeller for 5-7 knots.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11939
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Jason, the pool of photos that are “declassified by our internal censorship process” to show on internet is a bit limited i give you that – we need to restrict photos for the reasons detailled (here)

    having lived free for many centuries,

    the “police”, “military”, and “pirates” are merely predators,

    they are really all the same, with little to no distinction.

    predators have a desired catch, for some it’s gold, for others it’s cocaine.

    Really when they call something “smuggling” they are merely showing they want some.

    In nature any fish can swim in the sea with anything in it’s belly, some fish get eaten.

    That many countries have decided to eradicate fish that carry coco or other goodies, is nothing short of genocide.

    I had a vision that one day, we might rescue you

    from the oppressive regime you live in.

    yar leave ‘em land lubbers behind.

    Though your link does bring up the opportunity

    to make these home-made submarines of the coco-fish,

    perhaps they are cheaper or show what we can do with available boats.

    The sweet spot of speed for (part) submerged economic long distance ocean cruising is in the range of the cruising speed of a whale 5-7 knots studies of whale energetics suggest that a 200 ton whale uses some 50 HP for locomotion and body functions.

    yo that’s 37 killowatts… earlier you were saying 200 watts would be okay… what gives? was that the smaller sub?

    Like I understand for emergencies like escaping predator-fish you might want to use more power,

    but just for going or maintaining momentum, it would be nice to be powered by renewable energy.

    #11948

    elspru, i do not have the impression i live in a opressive regime – colombia is a wonderful country i choosed to live here 15 years ago – i try to understand what is happening around me and be part of the solution instead of converting into part of the problem – i think in my situation a concient limiting of tecnical detail depth on internet is a intelligent behavior although it limits the number of photos i can show.

    What concerns the minimum energy requirements for locomotion of a streamlined submerged living space bubble it is not either or.

    When i brought the 20 ton prototype to water in the early neighties i was interested in the question ” how low can you go?” . So i put in a ridiculous small electric engine of only 200 W and found that this engine moved the hull just fine in any storm so i never saw a need to go with a bigger engine.

    On the other hand always when i talk with naval engineers about motorizing a 20t boat with 200W they almost fall from the chair – 3 HP per ton is seen as “required for safety reasons to bring bow into the wind” even on a small motor sailer. So what i can say is, that it is obvious for me that the requirements for submerged/deeploaded hulls and surface boat concepts are obviously VERY VERY different.

    My current recommendation is to keep the engine in the range of the whale model 50HP for a 200 ton body. This is a design that is widley approved by nature. On the other hand it looks very feasible to me to go even much lower – for example to the “sleeper shark” model that handles locomotion energy several times lower than a high energy mammal like a whale.

    In any case you will not find a lot of diesel engines below 50HP on the market, so the point is you get the smallest diesel generator you can find use it for comfort electrics and “the rest” is just fine for locomotion at a few knots at whale cruising speed. A 200 ton whale can produce some 400HP in emergency mode for a minute – this pushes the body to speeds of up to 30 knots. So a sub can be both a extremly economic long range boat or a fast boat compared to a surface yacht of the same size. It depends on the engine range you choose.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11953
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    i think in my situation a concient limiting of tecnical detail depth on internet is a intelligent behavior although it limits the number of photos i can show.

    so it’s just your conceit or consent limiting the technical details?

    When i brought the 20 ton prototype to water in the early neighties i was interested in the question ” how low can you go?” . So i put in a ridiculous small electric engine of only 200 W and found that this engine moved the hull just fine in any storm so i never saw a need to go with a bigger engine.

    :-) so how do you think it would scale linearly or exponentially?

    i.e. how many watts for same effect with a 100 tons?

    On the other hand always when i talk with naval engineers about motorizing a 20t boat with 200W they almost fall from the chair – 3 HP per ton is seen as “required for safety reasons to bring bow into the wind” even on a small motor sailer. So what i can say is, that it is obvious for me that the requirements for submerged/deeploaded hulls and surface boat concepts are obviously VERY VERY different.

    exactly, it would be wasteful to use oversized motors.

    My current recommendation is to keep the engine in the range of the whale model 50HP for a 200 ton body. This is a design that is widley approved by nature. On the other hand it looks very feasible to me to go even much lower – for example to the “sleeper shark” model that handles locomotion energy several times lower than a high energy mammal like a whale.

    it’s just 37 killowatts would require 30 wind turbines, or 30m^2 of solar-panels.

    In any case you will not find a lot of diesel engines below 50HP on the market

    diesel is unsustainable, as you can’t get it on the ocean.

    oxyhydrogen fuel can be made from seawater via electrolysis,

    so it’s best if the motors are alternating-current electrical.

    potentially we could use stirling engines,

    but they are notoriously rare, and low torque,

    so we’d have to make them ourselves.

    we might still be able to use stirling engines for electrical production from oxyhydrogen,

    instead of fuel-cells so we could avoid getting platinum which are essential to fuel-cells.

    A 200 ton whale can produce some 400HP in emergency mode for a minute – this pushes the body to speeds of up to 30 knots. So a sub can be both a extremly economic long range boat or a fast boat compared to a surface yacht of the same size. It depends on the engine range you choose.

    Wil

    ya, I was hoping with an AC motor we could configure the speed and power consumption via the alternator.

    so could use the stored oxyhydrogen power for bursts of speed in emergency situations,

    though for ordinary propulsion it should be a small percentage of what we get through renewable energy sources,

    that way we have enough energy to power our other utilities like lights, water, and making more oxyhydrogen to store.

    On topic of propulsion, the Iargans use passive wave-powered propulsion, though it’s mainly for surface going vessels, basically is a pipe going from bottom to rear with one-way valve.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11955
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    What if we start with a plate (stadion) seastead and load it deeper by building it higher up over time (like the rion-antirion bridge pylon) – so people can get used to it.

    We may end up with a semisubmerged skyscrapper or a sea orbiter where people can live below or above the sea level depending on their preference. Such structures already do exist as underwater observatory in the red sea. And the rion-antirion bridge pylon solved the engineering.

    I think this is my favorite idea so far for a large-scale seastead – and, incidentally, I imagine that this should be large enough to provide enough compartments to make it very hard to sink.

    You are of course correct that we can not reasonably protect a seastead from every possible danger, but considering the consequences we should at least take what precautions we can. Your mention of toilet valves being the most likely cause of a yacht sinking was exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I suggested that some small malfunction and gradual inflow was a more likely danger than implosion.

    You mentioned safe rooms – how about a combination of a safe room with some emergency means of pumping water out of a ballast tank? If the ballast tank was large enough to bring the craft back to the surface when the tank was empty and the living quarters flooded, that might give a reasonable margin of safety. Alternately, inflatable floats that could quickly be deployed with compressed air might also be sufficient. Of course, I presume a double hatch at the entrance would be de rigeur, to guard against a faulty seal or latch. I suppose this might be dealt with by a heavy duty hatch with double seals and redundant latches instead.

    Incidentally, one of your posts had a picture of what looks like a monolithic dome. I am looking into building a house soon using a monolithic dome design.

    #11959

    I am not a big fan of sending out a whole population of a city in inflatable floats on the open ocean in a hundred year storm – just remember the past evacuations of cities (New Orleans) and its practical application. People will always tend to stay in their houses. Also as the example of the fastnet race shows many of those floating out in inflatable rafts drowned although the yacht hull was found later without mast and keel but still floating. So why not think in a concept where the living space shell IS the rescue float and the safe room.

    As you mentioned the dome shell house – make it a “bubble house” that can float for itself if necessary – even riped apart from a destroyed seastead – It would be like ants, living in a foam block, the living space bubbles would break apart just to stay afloat on their own.

    You would have to make a couple of adaptions to your living space enclosure – windows like the egg shell – (small to take wave hits but you can have a LOT of them for a well lighed interior), a watertight entrance door.

    The dome house is “almost there” and it is NOT a expensive living space. A plate seastead poblated with buoyant bubble houses would be a extremly safe seastead the rion-antirion pylon solved the engineering on large scale. Maybe a little more ship shaped for mobility. How deeploaded would you go – just a plate or a submerged skyscrapper?

    The question is – once you go for a living space bubble for security reasons – why not scale down the seastead structure and go for a breakwater or a lagoon seastead where independent floating units (boats, houseboats, subs, floating living space of all kind) can have a “loose raft up” in open sea.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11961
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    I am not a big fan of sending out a whole population of a city in inflatable floats on the open ocean in a hundred year storm

    Perhaps this is a language issue – though I am suitably impressed that you speak English as well as you do. I was talking about having inflatable floats available to lift a swamped and sinking submarine back to the surface. Submarine is sinking, you have made it to your safe room, but the sub has taken on water and is still sinking. You push a button to deploy the emergency floats, and the floats pull the submarine back to the surface. There will still be water in the sub, but you only need to swim through a few feet to get out – presuming you can’t summon help. Much better than trying to swim from the bottom of the ocean.

    So why not think in a concept where the living space shell IS the rescue float and the safe room.

    As you mentioned the dome shell house – make it a “bubble house” that can float for itself if necessary – even riped apart from a destroyed seastead

    I really like where you are going here. I try not to take things to extremes, but I’ve still got a “belt and braces” personality, and I like to take safety measures so long as they are not unreasonably prohibitive or expensive. Considering that such a colony would be home to its inhabitants, it is doubly important to have the means to preserve not only life but also some basic possessions – even if it is only documents and a survival kit. A floating home – or even just one floating safe room perched on top of one’s house – seems like an excellent idea.

    A floating colony greatly reduces one concern: that an emergency situation might occur while everyone is asleep and there is no one to raise an alarm. Floating houses or safe rooms addresses the other concern – that everyone might die if the colony runs into trouble, whether a hurricane or otherwise. Such floating bubbles also address another concern. I’m sure you know that a sinking ship often pulls survivors down with it in its wake, but such a bubble would almost certainly break free from the current and pop back to the surface before its inhabitants suffocated from lack of oxygen.

    Otherwise, I like both the plate structure and the lagoon structure. I would be willing to live on either type of structure when it is combined with independent floatable housing. It might even be possible to combine the two: With the use of a lock, a vessel could enter and descend to a lower level, and then either float in a shallow marina or even access a dry dock, all below sea level. The size and number of the vessels would depend on the size of the colony structure, though I wouldn’t really be expecting to be able to house an aircraft carrier.

    As for your question about how much deeploading I would want – it doesn’t really matter to me. For practical reasons I would guess that we wouldn’t want more than four or five stories under water, but perhaps I’m wrong. When it comes to skyscrapers, it is not really cost-effective to build more than 20 stories high. Anything taller than that is built for advertising purposes, not to make the most efficient use of expensive land – and we will not even be concerned about expensive land. I would be inclined to put working and manufacturing spaces under the water line, and living spaces above. This is a standard safety protocol, to have higher standards in spaces where people will be sleeping.

    Incidentally, this reminds me – I happened to read Megan McArdle’s blog today, and she has recently been traveling in China, where she noted that China’s population is centred around cities with good ports.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/11/is-chinas-competitive-edge-already-eroding/66992/

    Water transport remains so much cheaper than everything else that the limiting factor on an export center is a good port. (This may change somewhat in the not-so-distant future with the advent of “desktop fabrication”, but there will probably still be advantages to having a good port.) A floating city will obviously have access to the sea, and only needs to build a good port for itself to be viable as a processing center. Such a city also has the advantage of being able to relocate as occasion requires. Suddenly find that Japan is our largest export destination? Anchor offshore to be closer to our customers. The colony could even be nomadic to deal with seasonal demands.

    #11968
    Avatar of Farmer
    Farmer
    Participant

    Alan desktop fabrication is still decades off I think. At least I hope; Economists talk about “disruptive technologies” desktop fabrication, even the most modest kinds would be downright catastrophic for pretty much all extant industries. It would be pretty much the end of the world as we know it economically. A very good thing in the end but slow change is good change.

    The diner plate seastead is my favorite idea yet. Not scalable but perfect in so many ways. One suggested modification? Raise the outer wall up 30-40 meters and you will never get your lawn soaked in salt water.

    EDIT: the plate and submerged tower are complementary, not mutually exclusive. Put industrial space on the bottom, commercial space above that, residential space, schools etc. there they can get a little indirect sunlight and a big shared garden/park on top for everybody.
    #11969

    Alan wrote:

    ..I would guess that we wouldn’t want more than four or five stories under water, but perhaps I’m wrong. When it comes to skyscrapers, it is not really cost-effective to build more than 20 stories high. Anything taller than that is built for advertising purposes….

    Water transport remains so much cheaper than everything else that the limiting factor on an export center is a good port. (This may change somewhat in the not-so-distant future with the advent of “desktop fabrication”, but there will probably still be advantages to having a good port.) A floating city will obviously have access to the sea, and only needs to build a good port for itself to be viable as a processing center. Such a city also has the advantage of being able to relocate as occasion requires. Suddenly find that Japan is our largest export destination? Anchor offshore to be closer to our customers. The colony could even be nomadic to deal with seasonal demands.

    I agree that seasteads should take advantage of the horizontal space the ocean offers for free. So no highrise and no “deeprise” building is really required.

    Water transport has always been a key factor in industrial development but it becomes increasingly important with globalization – factories already do follow the markets around the globe. At the moment they get built and dismantled in one country and built up again in another country. Your point that a seastead is the ONLY way to move your factory to Japan without even interupting the production is a MAYOR argument for seasteading. SAB-Miller is already considering floating factories to follow recources and markets. A seastead could be a factory a load terminal, a container port, a drydock, and a free trade zone, all in one handy package.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11971

    Alan wrote:

    …. A floating home – or even just one floating safe room perched on top of one’s house – seems like an excellent idea…

    This is basicly where the oil/gas industry is going to – when the whole platform goes to hell – a life raft, a boat, is just not enough – they have completly enclosed living space bubbles that can take a direct wave hit, a drop from dozends of meters, a ride trough a oil patch on fire, submerged status, weeks of isolated drifting at sea – what ever the emergency situation may be – the last resource is always a bunker like bubble.

    So why not install your home in such a safe bubble in first place .

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #11972

    Farmer wrote:

    ….The diner plate seastead is my favorite idea yet. …. Raise the outer wall up 30-40 meters and you will never get your lawn soaked in salt water…

    Ways to build it

    Building Rion-Antirion Pylon

    A outer wall half of this height should be sufficient freeboard…we might also have a breakwater ring like the ekofisk tank to combine plate seastead and lagoon seastead.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11973
    Avatar of Alan
    Alan
    Participant

    Farmer wrote:
    Alan desktop fabrication is still decades off I think.

    And yet I have the machine (as yet unassembled) just a few meters away from me.

    Right now they are limited to a single material – generally some type of plastic – but there is expectation that they will be able to accommodate at least two materials, and be able to manufacture simple electronics, within 5 years. It won’t happen overnight, but we should not neglect to take this disruptive technology into account, either.

    #11976
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Alan wrote:

    Farmer wrote:

    Alan desktop fabrication is still decades off I think.

    And yet I have the machine (as yet unassembled) just a few meters away from me.

    Right now they are limited to a single material – generally some type of plastic – but there is expectation that they will be able to accommodate at least two materials, and be able to manufacture simple electronics, within 5 years. It won’t happen overnight, but we should not neglect to take this disruptive technology into account, either.

    [/quote]

    I’ll be blunt, for the reprap/open source 3d printer technology to be disruptive it would need to be affordable to buy and manufacture.

    Reprap parts are like money: Money that is made on a printing press which take 24 hours of run time and $50 in repairs for every $100 bill produced.

    #11978

    elspru wrote:

    …diesel is unsustainable, as you can’t get it on the ocean…

    …potentially we could use stirling engines…

    Alternative energy sources are much easier to get for small energy needs. So the living space bubble concept with its low propulsion energy need can open a door to experiment with alternative energy sources that would not be able to satisfy the need of hundreds of horsepower of a classic yacht.

    I was thinking in current turbine solutions, pelamis wave generators, and similar sistems that extract the needed energy directly from the ocean.

    I would not dismiss diesel as energy source – we could filter plankton or grow algea and convert them to biodiesel.

    Stirling Engines could work with a wide range of different energy sources.

    Basicly a family living in a semi/submerged living space bubble would consume less energy in comfort electrics than a average US household (no aircon need) and would need very little energy for cruising (similar to the whale model) – there would be no need to have oversized engines for safety reasons. So a microturbine or fuel cell solution could do the job completly and efficiently.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11984

    When we look for role models for bubble living space that can create comfort in the open ocean without the need of giant expensive platforms, we might be inspired by solutions that already exist as “exotic hotel” – below a futuristic snorkel seastead, a underwater hotel, underwater restaurant, massage room in the maledives, utter inn submerged hotel room and platform, survival pod hotel, igloo hotel.

    Survival Pod Hotel

    These bright orange mod pods anchored in The Hague were part of an art project before being capitalized on as adventurous getaway. Packages range from basic survival with a sleeping bag and food rations to something a bit more James Bond-esque.

    The Hotel Kakslauttanen in Finland is in fact an Igloo Village, at which you can have your pick of 20 unique glass and snow igloos for your stay. They aren’t ice houses, but 31 well-maintained log cabins – built from a very special thermo glass that keeps them warmth and comfortable. Because of that, the temperature inside the Igloos is always a normal room temperature and the igloos inhabitants won’t feel any of the polar cold.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

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