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Oceanstead Development International (OSDI)

Home Forums Community General Chat Oceanstead Development International (OSDI)

This topic contains 79 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of xiagos xiagos 4 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 80 total)
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  • #9009
    Avatar of livefreeortry
    livefreeortry
    Participant

    Vince is definitely correct that lack of hands-on experimentation is holding us back. I’m guilty in this regard too. I’m planning to try out making a small pool sized concrete sparship (see links below) using a methodology I’d proposed earlier (see 3rd and 4th links).

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/sparship?page=1

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/sparship-2-h-configuration

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/small-snap-fit-parts-easy-seastead-construction

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:Snap_fit_parts_and_example_seastead.jpg

    However one of my main worries, after visiting some local floating fish farms, is the corrosiveness of the marine environment; all their steel bolts holding the structure together are rusted almost to the core after only a couple of years. I’m therefore looking for some detailed guidance as to how concrete can be made sea worthy, particularly preventing sea water ingress and corrosion of the reinforcing steel bars.

    I’m sure it can be done since there’re many examples of ferroboats and other long lasting marine concrete structures, but I haven’t been able to find details of water/cement/sand ratios, additives required, type of steel etc.

    Can anyone help out with this info?

    #9011

    livefreeortry, sure – in a nut shell – it is not a magic concrete ingredient that protects the steel – it is a sufficient concrete cover thickness over the rebar – some 2cm are kind of minimum – this limits concrete walls that are build to last in marine environment to a thickness above 5 cm – better 10cm.

    Keep in mind that the grade of protection the steel gets is an EXPONENTIAL function of the thickness of the concrete cover over the rebar. You might find the following reading list helpful ( concrete marine floating structures ) in your project.

    May i suggest to think about the following question:

    If you are obligated to build thick walls for corrosion and durability reasons – why not build thick walled shell structures instead of filigrane elevated platforms?

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #9133
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    The way this is proposed, it sounds as if you are creating a rigid ring. Might I sugest that you use joints that allow flexing with the waves, rather than a rigid structure the fights them? Maybe a tour of the original atoll from “Waterworld” is called for. Their design is wave-tank tested(in scale) for category 5 storms, as is their anchor placement and distribution… It has already survived a number of storms. The only question is if it still exists. It was supposed to go to California, outside that I don’t have any new information. Worth looking in to.

    #9137
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    I had three people set to come and actually work on it.

    http://seagypsies-mikeandkatie.blogspot.com/

    Taking our cue from the Eskimos, we boat people have over 30 words for “leak.”

    #9172
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Trust me when I say that anyone who suggests allowing flexing, has either, never worked on a flexible platform, or is possessed of infinite patience. It’s definitely possible, but IMO, you’d have to devote quite alot of resources to developing new buildings/techniques that can function/exist on your seastead.

    @Mike, I think they’re just getting the administrative/legal stuff done. Been speaking to them regarding aquaculture. How’s live-aboard life treating you? Just met a family, english husband, taiwanese wife and their 5 year old who speaks 5 languages. They’ve been living on their 40ft catamaran for the last 5 years. Amazing stuff.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #9173
    Avatar of SailorTrash
    SailorTrash
    Participant

    …is great, especially since we’re finally about to start cruising. Been working with a diesel guru to tune the engine, and properly tensioned the standing rigging this weekend. A few more tweak, some provisioning, and we are ready to go. Window is seven to eight weeks.

    http://seagypsies-mikeandkatie.blogspot.com/

    Taking our cue from the Eskimos, we boat people have over 30 words for “leak.”

    #9194
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    xnsdvd wrote:

    Trust me when I say that anyone who suggests allowing flexing, has either, never worked on a flexible platform, or is possessed of infinite patience. It’s definitely possible, but IMO, you’d have to devote quite alot of resources to developing new buildings/techniques that can function/exist on your seastead.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    OK, so, lets engineer the un-movable object and see how well it withstands the forces of nature. Ever seen the relative motion of a boat at a dock? How about 2 boats abreast? Yet you expect to attach all of these potential units into one, inflexible structure, while people expect to be able to move their ‘stead, at will…

    I want your experience in engineering announced, so we can all praise the all-wise and all-knowing…

    Me? I designed and built a treehouse, between 2 trees. the beams could pivot at one end and slide at the other, while both beams could move at slightly different rates, to allow for lateral motion, as well. It lasted over 10 years, before we tore it down, when one of the trees died. I used Stainless Steel to do the attachment, because galvanized would have killed the trees.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9202
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Engineering experience I have none. Aside from what I’ve done with several kinetic sculptures. I do however, have experience with working on both flexible and inflexible platforms. I.e. My floating farm and construction barges. Apologies if the previous post came across as arrogant though, but you really do have to factor the cost of developing new buildings/techniques to allow for a moving foundation. Whereas one that doesn’t move will allow for many existing building techniques to be used. It’s just cheaper.

    As for the point about 2 boats on a dock, I’m looking at 27 of them right now… And I like the 60ft trimaran most due to the fact that it’s not moving as much as the monohulls.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #9203
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Exactly my point, it’s still moving. It’s going to be a mass of moving platforms, no matter how you try to lock them together. there has to be flexibiliy between them, for several reasons. The motion of the ocean is one, the various freeboard heights is another, because no 2 platforms will be loaded exactly the same. With identical platforms, they will not be identically loaded. That means that one piece is higher in the water than the next.

    I’d say, put a section of floating dock between each platform. Tether it between two platforms, with enough slack to be flexible, tight enough to not hit and, use boarding ramps is the way to connect. Electrical connections and communications links can be run in a chase/toe-guard edge, across the ramp. That edge also prevents smaller objects from rolling into the water, when dropped(not ‘if’ Humans are clumsy, from time to time).

    I don’t think anyone expects to not have some sort of reef structure, to help reduce the wave action, but nothing can stop it, not even covering the entire ocean would do that. No matter what,we’ll have waves and tidal surge to deal with, so flexability is a must. It also allows for different shaped structures to be lashed into the network.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9247
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    ….”because no 2 platforms will be loaded exactly the same. With identical platforms, they will not be identically loaded. That means that one piece is higher in the water than the next.”

    Variable draft modules can be rafted up @ the mark by using ballast tanks. If module “X” draft is 7 feet lower than module ‘Y’, just empty “X” ballast tanks to equlize the drafts.

    Dahh :-)

    #9257
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Variable draft modules can be rafted up @ the mark by using ballast tanks. If module “X” draft is 7 feet lower than module ‘Y’, just empty “X” ballast tanks to equlize the drafts.

    Dahh :-)

    What will you do when the things won’t unlock, because of the same weight differences and the ‘Smiths” want to move to the other side of ‘town,’ while surrounded and locked into place, by 6 other SeaSteads? Play with it and pray something doesn’t snap, bend, etc.? Get real. If it’s connected by ropes, you get fexibility. THEN, you can do all of this, maintain the ability to move to the other side, or another ‘City-Stead,’ etc.

    Sure, ropes wear out, fenders, too. They can be replaced far easier than the complicated mechanisms and ballast systems you are describing. My way also cuts unnecessary design and structure costs, removes unnecessary complicated(and expensive) systems and allows for adapting to different floating SeaStead designs.

    K.I.S.S. principle at work. There is already a working, usefull design, that is simple and effective, low-cost, too.

    Besides all of that, there’s the routine hull maintenance and ‘bio-fouling’ to remove…

    What do you do when a whale dies under your massive construct and bloats? My way, you un-tie some stuff and drag it off. Your way, you put up with the odors, seeping through the joints, until it sinks, all the while praying that the corrosive fluids don’t permanently damage something.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9358
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    U get real and pay attention to the dialog. All I said was:

    “Variable draft modules can be rafted up @ the mark by using ballast tanks. If module “X” draft is 7 feet lower than module ‘Y’, just empty “X” ballast tanks to equlize the drafts.”

    I didnt say nothing about locking anything, or dead whales (??) or the “Smiths”. U did. U also said, “There is already a working, usefull design, that is simple and effective, low-cost, too.” I havent heard of it.

    What is your engineering expertise other than building a tree house? Do you have any seatime? It seems to me that u want to prove yourself right all the time.

    #9359
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Getting real asks you the same things I already asked. Now, you get all of these things hooked together, ballasting and blowing ballast until this hypothetical city is all on one level. Then there’s a quarrel between the Hatfields and McCoys, who no longer want to be neighbors, mean-time the Smiths have added 2 rooms for the new kids, the Jones family built a new addition to the hardware store and the Gonzos place burned from an electrical fire that started with a worn-out bilge pump. The Andersons 5 kids are all grown and gone, so they sold-off 2/3s of the Lego-house to someone in another part of town.

    It’s all linked, your way, but the weights have shifted and no one has readjusted all of those ballasts… How do you propose to let these guys move to a better-suited area, or another City-stead, on a few minutes notice, meanwhile… “It’s mine, I can leave anytime I want, it says so, right here, in the New Constitution of the Liberated Peoples of the Society of the Waterbabies, Page 2, line 67.”

    Lash it all together however you want, it’s going to have to be flexible, just because the sea never stops moving and people are fickle. That leaves ropes, gangplanks and some sort of bumper to cushion this against that, as the simple method to keep it all from damaging itself and the next piece and the ones on the other side, too.

    If it doesn’t flex, it’ll break. All I’ve done is propose that ropes and such are easier and cheaper than fancy gizmos. Put floating dock sections between this one and that one, for that walkway, rather than have everyone constantly changing ballast or locking it all together with something that will break, so they can walk across town, without tripping.

    I’m just trying to be pragmatic. I won’t be locked into that grid. I’ll be tieing-up over at the Barnacle, to trade with Sven, with my little boat. My place is out on the horizon, where there’s room for me to farm fish, oysters and kelp.

    Somebody has to play “Devil’s Advocate.” You explain it. How’s it going to be hooked together? Show me the design. Try telling everyone that they have to build it your way, or else… Mean-time, you’ve got proposals for hexagons, 5 and 6-pointed stars, rectangular barges and platforms, as well as circular ones, floating around the forums. How does that work?

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9360
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Start in the center with one unit. Build in circles, outward. Use ‘spokes’ to keep the ‘rim’ roughly circular, but enough slack that the waves don’t snap things. Put in those floating segments, let everyone supply their own and their gang-plank as well. Then you’re not fighting with who has what amount of ballast to take-on or blow. The Hatfields can move. It might not be convenient, but they can.

    Allow for movement, or it’ll break. I don’t know everything, but I can see the storm and tuck my trousers into my rubber boots. I knew those trees would move at different rates, in different directions, constantly and I designed for it. I’ve set-up horse stalls that could be completely folded against the wall of the barn, so there’d be room for the horses to come in out of whatever weather they wanted to. I’ve hooked-up plumbing, so I could move it a bit this way or that, to mow and weed-eat around and under. I’ve worked on Jet engines, radial engines, flat 4′s and 6′s, in-line 4′s and 6′s, V-6′s and V-8′s. Planes, cars, trucks and tractors. I’ve helped build houses that have withstood hurricanes, even though I had to rig around stuff, to fix what went wrong, when that over there got changed. I don’t know everything, but I dang sure know how to apply what I know to the situation at hand.

    Later,

    J.L..F.

    If you can’t swim with the big fish, stick to the reef

    #9495
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    What I am talking about is an improvment of an older design I presented awhile ago, which was based on what I called “kite shaped modular floating modules”. http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/waveland-modular-mobile-offshore-base

    I did retain the kite shape but elongated a bit the midhip section of the whole structure to create an OCEANFLOAT, a full displacement, variable draft atoll shaped seastead to be build in ferrocement. Here are some pics of the design, above and below the water line.

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.1.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.2.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.3.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.4.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.5.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.6.jpg

    The size of OCEANFLOAT can be anything from 100′ (I would suggest it as a minimum) to ?? LOA. It is scalable. The following is 500′ LOA. (to show the size of the structure, note the sailing cat shown docked in the lagoon @ 100′ LOA.)

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.0.jpg

    In terms of connecting the OCEANFLOAT there are countless rafting up combinations. Here are few examples:

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.7.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.8.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.9.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.10.jpg

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:OCEANFLOAT.11.jpg

    In terms of “how to connect” I would suggest a simple, classic dockline on cleats with fenders inbetween the topsizes.

    I think that OCEANFLOAT meets most of the seasteading requirements that a majority of us here agreed upon:

    1. Ferrocement construction. (to be more precise, steel reeinforced concrete).
    2. Modular.
    3. Mobile.
    4. Scalable.
    5. Safe & Stable and Comfortable. (due to the high beam to length ratio).
    6. Easily accessible by boat for cargo or passanger transfer.
    7. Variable draft.
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