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oceanic business development, mining, seafood, energy

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This topic contains 48 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
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  • #22704

    Not sure if you picture the concept correctly, i am talking about spaces like that – Pantheon 43m concrete dome – ancient Rome.
    pantheon
    And anchor setups like this:
    ocean sphere anchor setup
    Possible mobility with truster setups like this:
    thruster setup ocean sphere
    I am not talking about the freedom of “trailer living” in a city center – stuffing coins into a parkmeter – to get a view at the skyscrappers…

    I agree that there might be host cities that still will want to claim “optical contamination” if you stick a entrance port out of the water…but this does not bother the owner of such a sphere – you just move it a mile up or down the coast into the jurisdiction of a friendlier city councel. Mobilis in Mobile (Captain Nemo’s Motto) makes sure that you have always the better cards to play.

    At the end if you fly a flag of convenience you are out of jurisdiction – a clear 9 score from whatever angle you look at it…

    Moving out to international water (a sphere can do that – a 30m platform not – due to the Draupner problem) you increase to a 9.9 score – the best score on the planet. – A clear 10 is only possible in outer space….so i do NOT aim for it i am realist. I am good in the 8-9 score area (Navlights and Ambient protection laws – no boarding by any “authority” without a court order – in a nutshell)…not even speak of “confiscation of the boat” or “submarine laws” and similar nonsense…no authorithy bulleying…there is no legal base for it…and a coast guard boat has just no practical means to do it – even if they would like to…and i doubt that they would like to board without a legal base (speak court order). The legislation you spoke about does NOT apply and not lay such a base – that is a misconcept.

    #22705
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    The usa has a 6 month rule about a foreign flag in usa waters. So does the Bahamas. Florida has a 30 day rule about each particular state park on the water. In fact, Florida a few years ago tried to get rid of all liveaboards. So you cannot just park anywhere.

    You mentioned the Draupner wave, saying a 30m platform cannot be offshore due to them. I would have thought a 30m platform would *need* to be far offshore to have deep water, to ride out a deep trough and tall peak of a Draupner. No?

    #22706

    Gibraltar floating hotel
    “you cannot just park anywhere” – sure, never said that you can, some 0.01% of the planetary waterspace is already “somehow restricted to mooring and anchoring”. In this segment fall shipping lanes, port access channels, yacht harbor darsenas and anchor fields. But it seems possible to cut a deal for the harbor darsena in Gibraltar – this floating hotel venture did…
    They blend in in yacht appearance, but occupy the vision line – a sphere habitat is literally invisible.
    But i doubt that legislation that was created to get a handling on “wild yachtie party live aboard excess” will be 1:1 applied to a discrete invisble sphere under water that gives good business service to the City. Cutting a deal for such a venture seems to be possible at at least 99% of the US shoreline, Bahamas, Florida, and if problems arise – mobilis in mobile – problem solved. 99% of the planetary waterspace is still available and business spheres are welcome in general coastal cities try to attract business not shu it away – especiall if there is no ambient and visual impact – but i am also sure that in a century or two the parking and mooring at the mid ocean ridges will be as restricted as california yacht darsenas today…so “you can not just park anywhere” on the ocean will come some day but afortunatly we are not there yet – and for now in general YES you can – de facto – and de juris – ALMOST everywhere. It is a 9.9 score not a 10.

    #22707
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Am i to understand you will not speak about the Draupner wave and floating platform in deep water, or how to fasten to cast cement floatation cells?

    #22709

    freak waves
    The Draupner wave was a freak wave measured on the Draupner Platform January 1, 1995 and had some 25m
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t45822161/draupner-new-year-wave-and-its-consequences-for-seasteading/
    Before seeing that naval engineering was calculating with the “linear wave model” that predicts that no wave in the worldoceans can be higher than 15m. What is changed now is that what really applies is the “non linear wave model” that predicts that under special circumstances waves can suck up all the energy of the surrounding waves and create a monster of almost arbitrary height breaking in open ocean 30m seem possible. No ship no oil platform no surface floating structure is safe on open ocean anymore. Naval engineering is in panic since Draupner. A seastead will see Draupner waves several times in a 200 year service life. So it must either be so big that a 30m wave is still small compared to the seastead (City sized) it must be lifted 40m over the surface on stilts or it must be capable to be overwashed (submerged) for short periods of time when the Draupner wave comes in. The simplest and most cost effective solution would be to build all structures for the open sea submersible (like the ocean sphere) to be at the safe side. Platforms for the open sea with houses on them (as suggested by DeltaSync) are definitly not a good solution anymore…

    Naval engineers are now thinking about why mother nature never brought up a surface swimming animal or plant for the open sea…nothing that nature can build can survive a Draupner wave on the surface – only submerged animals can…

    #22711
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I saw the laser altimeter of the Draupner event, and i saw pics of a ocean-going oil tanker with a 65ft wave coming aboard the bows-starboard quarter. There’s been a number of ships that were presumeably sunk when a huge wave boarded the ship and caved in the cargo hold hatches and simply filled the ship with water. Hatches must now be more substancial.

    If you look at the laser record of the wave, it’s height is not that great over a calm sea. The peak is being measured from the bottom of the trough preceeding the peak, and that trough alone, the water suddenly falling out from under a boat, could sink it. I believe that sudden trough occuring at your semisubmerged bubble will severely injure the occupants due to the fall and the rolling.

    I suspect a floating tower with enough depth to make a couple killowatts of otec electricity will be deep enough to be in comparatively stable water, even during a Draupner.

    I log wave height and direction globally every 12 hours, and have been for several years. There’s been some huge areas with waves over 40ft/12m pretty regularly. There’s a large area south of the Aleutians now, and a couple weeks ago there was a wave field the size of Australia in the N Atl that apparently maxed the measuring system.

    So to summarise, to clear the common max height the platform should be 50ft/15m above calm sea anyhow, and at least some portion will be 200ft/60m deep for otec, so i believe it would allow you to look down on a Draupner as it passed under you. To keep it from being pushed over is merely a matter of the base width, and some temporary active thruster compensation. Maybe it’s just me, but if the chance of damage to the seastead is lower than the chances of getting killed on land, the battle is won.

    #22712
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    I am not talking about the freedom of “trailer living” in a city center – stuffing coins into a parkmeter – to get a view at the skyscrappers…

    Who says about stuffing? Make a gigantic trailer, go ahead. The laws that city applies to a giant trailer will be applied to a giant sphere. The city will not ignore a giant sphere 3 minutes from city center that declared interference-free zone inside of it.

    I agree that there might be host cities that still will want to claim “optical contamination” if you stick a entrance port out of the water…but this does not bother the owner of such a sphere – you just move it a mile up or down the coast into the jurisdiction of a friendlier city councel. Mobilis in Mobile (Captain Nemo’s Motto) makes sure that you have always the better cards to play.

    Why do you think the country government will not interfere? I just don’t understand what do you want to achieve? Sitting in the sphere and watching TV? As soon as you start doing business or politics, the country government will notice your sphere and use sanctions. Captain Nemo was a fictional person, just like floating brewery is only a concept and again you are posting computer rendered images a lot.

    Navlights and Ambient protection laws – no boarding by any “authority” without a court order – in a nutshell
    At the end if you fly a flag of convenience you are out of jurisdiction – a clear 9 score from whatever angle you look at it…

    Many countries still do care what is going on in their EEZ even if the ship is not under their jurisdiction. Especially if it violates internal laws. For example, do you seriously think some country wouldn’t care that someone is doing business near city center without using customs, without paying taxes, without pollution control or social responsibility?

    Moving out to international water (a sphere can do that – a 30m platform not – due to the Draupner problem) you increase to a 9.9 score – the best score on the planet. – A clear 10 is only possible in outer space…

    It’s 9.9 score only while you are a hermit. As soon as you start doing big business, it’s back to 1.1 again. And clear 10 is never possible, no system is 100% secure. That’s not to say even if you are 9.9 as soon as another person appears inside the sphere, the number drops to 7, unless you’re going to be authoritarian or it’s a child.

    not even speak of “confiscation of the boat” or “submarine laws” and similar nonsense

    Major powers do board ships and search them in international waters. Sometimes even destroy them. It’s not nonsence, it’s real world facts. The only nonsence is your non-interference sphere, real world doesn’t work like that. You will be left alone only while you are a hermit or while it’s a small movement. As soon as you start doing high-profile things or as soon as there are 100 of this spheres out there — the governments all over the world will act. Governments can act really fast: Nazi Germany captured France in one month. It won’t take a century, as you think, and in real world Nemo would be considered terrorist because he was helping revolts and revolutions all over the world, just like Al-Qaeda now. In real world it’s governments who use such submarines not Bin Laden.

    there is no legal base for it…and a coast guard boat has just no practical means to do it – even if they would like to…and i doubt that they would like to board without a legal base (speak court order). The legislation you spoke about does NOT apply and not lay such a base – that is a misconcept.

    Yes, there is legal base: vessel without flag is being considered dangerous and illegal. And it’s not coast guards who would be doing capture, it’s army who will deal with a giant Pantheon sphere that violates country laws and tries to be independent in the jurisdiction of the government. If you use convenience flag it can be considered war, because you occupy some territory by way of installing non-interference space.

    some 0.01% of the planetary waterspace is already “somehow restricted to mooring and anchoring”.

    Maybe it’s 0.02% and not 0.01% or maybe 70%. Without proof we can’t know. How about UNCLOS and International Seabed Authority?

    But it seems possible to cut a deal for the harbor darsena in Gibraltar – this floating hotel venture did…

    The hotel did because it’s not a seastead. There’s a big difference between sea business and seastead.

    They blend in in yacht appearance, but occupy the vision line – a sphere habitat is literally invisible.
    But i doubt that legislation that was created to get a handling on “wild yachtie party live aboard excess” will be 1:1 applied to a discrete invisble sphere under water that gives good business service to the City.

    So you are back again to discussing sea businesses instead of seasteads. For a seastead to be seastead in the vicinity of the city, it would have to have sovereignty. City can’t give sovereignty to you. So it will treat you as business. Only country governments have the right to acknowledge countries. Unless it happens, the city treats you as a common business in the best case, in the worst case you will be captured by an army, if you try to enforce non-interference. Again, this site is about seasteading, so let’s speak about seasteading sea business, namely in this case how to be considered sovereign in the vicinity of the city and do business instead of being considered unregistered business and being subject to country laws.

    so “you can not just park anywhere” on the ocean will come some day but afortunatly we are not there yet – and for now in general YES you can – de facto – and de juris – ALMOST everywhere. It is a 9.9 score not a 10.

    Sorry, but you can’t without being subject to some country’s laws. It’s a fact, otherwise show some examples.
    Here’s mine example, mining business called Zheltuga Republic:
    http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-2bfa539b-6a29-3c0c-bf66-b2e3fb46dd0b
    Only ~5 year lifetime, in 19th century.

    #22713

    I am involved in ship repair in the bay of Cartagena and see first hand how classification inspectors now become frozen when something is wrong on the ships Mc Gregor hatch closing and locking mechanism.The question of “looking down to the waves” from a ships bridge is not so certain anymore since the encounters of the MS Bremen and Caledonian Star which both took Draupner events over the bow and made it with heavy damage. One of the officials reported that while the ship was “surfing” down into the hole before the wavefront he tried to see the wavecrest from the bridge and he could not see the top of the wave from the bridge due to the steep UPLOOKING angle. All the freak waves in the videos are still downlooking angles.

    Satelite investigations with radar mesurement from orbit show freak waves are not so rare after all – now that science is looking for them – they really DO find them – everywhere.

    There is no really max height – schroedingers non linear model predicts “arbitrary height” …

    I can asure you that a wave (breaking or not) the size of the sphere diameter will not harm the sphere inhabitants – they will barly notice its pass. Have been there, have tested that, have experimented that, in a 2,5m structure with waves = hull diameter.

    sub on mooring site
    null

    More details about why and how submerged structures are perfectly protected from wave impact, hog and sag force damage here:

    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t45880972/submerged-protection-how-deep/

    A big wave with a crest capable of a impact force of hundreds of thousands of tons going over a surfer in “duck diving mode” filmed from below.
    duck diving
    Submerging a few feet – the only mode to survive a draupner event safely.

    #22715
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ellmer said : “Submerging a few feet – the only mode to survive a draupner event safely”, but the Draupner tower did survive. Every tower around it did survive.

    #22717
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    The reality is that you have a much higher chance of being fit by a car when crossing the street every week, than a seastead (or any ship for that matter) of being hit by a freak wave in 10 years.

    Are they bad? Yes… How bad? Much less than any average day of living in the big city,…rape, murder, muggings, theft, drunk drivers, crack heads, meth heads, people texting and chicks putting make up while driving, rush hour road rage, acid rain, pollution, asbestos, salmonella, VD, aids infected needles and blood in hospitals, daily stress, etc.

    Which one you want to deal with? One chance of a freak wave in ten years or the certitude of the above on a daily base?

    Plus, a modular seastead can “unraft” in a big storm and ride it as smaller individual seasteads thus highly minimizing any damage that a freak wave would do to the bigger structure, if hit.

    #22719

    seasteading vision
    The vision of TSI according to the picture now is a seawall, followed by a sparse connection seastead – a city of that size and make would do good in Draupner Events. The latest educated guess on frequency of Draupner Events is 4 times a year for a North Sea location. The existing structures DO surrvive because they are built for 15m expected waves (linear model) with a 1:2 safety factor. So they are built to a design wave height of 30m – for the non linear model they should be built for 60m – and this is not very feasible anymore – so since Draupner they moved from a “wide safety factor in place” to “barley surviving” …that is not good enough for a seastead.

    The question is: Until you can afford and finance a 20 mile long seawall as shown in the picture above – how do you design smaller structures to be safe and comfortable in open ocean.

    How would it be to start with a submerged sphere field that dampens waves like a kelp field or a underwater reef.

    #22721
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Oceanopolis

    rape, murder, muggings, theft, drunk drivers, crack heads, meth heads, people texting and chicks putting make up while driving, rush hour road rage, acid rain, pollution, asbestos, salmonella, VD, aids infected needles and blood in hospitals, daily stress, etc.

    Seasteads will be subject to some of those too… Like pollution or stress. Pollution because Earth is a single ecosystem and states will continue to destroy it, stress because globalization created “always on” working style and it’s probably needed to compete with states.



    ellmer

    Don’t know if you’ve seen my reply to your post… There was some bug, it’s visible now in this thread.

    #22722
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ellmer said : The question is: Until you can afford and finance a 20 mile long seawall as shown in the picture above – how do you design smaller structures to be safe and comfortable in open ocean.

    As if i had not been asking that question for years.

    Ellmer said: How would it be to start with a submerged sphere field that dampens waves like a kelp field or a underwater reef.

    A kelp field is not a solid unyielding ball of kelp any more than a field of hay is a solid bale of hay. You’d want a solid wall to your underwater seastead, i would think, just to keep the water out, and this will cause it to try and resist the water motion from top to bottom or side to side, exactly the same as a surfaced submarine, imagine being 5ft above the surface of a 20ft trough and then 5ft below the surface of a 20ft peak, you are still up and down 10ft, and side to side, and rolling. In heavy seas, you might get half as seasick in a surfaced sub as in one at 100ft down. I am not saying even 200ft in a sub is adequate, altho reports of that are usually classified i got a report from a Russian submariner who said they had it rough during hurricanes on any continental shelf, no matter how deep they were, there were times thay had to turn into the oncoming pressure waves and just sit it out. There’s also a reason the “N Atlantic” subs have such tall “sails”, when required to surface in storms they sometimes get laid over 45 degrees, there’s just no way to be on the surface with a topside hatch open. If you have a long duration event you better have an air processing plant. And sitting on the bottom (continental shelf) is not an answer, during hurricanes buried oil pipelines have been unburied and broken/moved, and sunken 1000 ton ships have been rolled over.

    I am pretty sure you want to avoid the wave zone as much as possible, and maybe water even as shallow as continental shelves, or be prepared for a lot of disruptive movement. And concrete tension cracking, and metal fatigue cracking, and broken brittle welds.

    #22723
    Profile photo of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    Ancient Man, FYI some of your posts were flagged by the software as spam for some reason, so I had to manually unflag them.

    #22724

    ben franklin drift dive
    how build small seasteads? –
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t47562833/submerged-living-space-bubble-best-concept/
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t43942461/the-captain-nemo-float-out-seasteading/
    seems you don’t believe that the “submerged bubble concept” and the “captain nemo float out” are giving you a quiet stay in open sea – have been there have done that. But don’t take my word for it – check the BEN FRANKLIN drift dive crew report. Privateer the surface vessel had to return due to a hurricane the Ben Franklin crew was just in undisturbed confort.
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51087589/ben-franklin-drift-dive/
    I have heard that submarine crews report bumpy underwater rides – seems to have to do with the (maybe some70 knot) cruising speed that makes a long thin ultrafast sub interactuate different with the ocean than Ben Franklin and our concepts which have deep gravity center and a different operation envelope. A passenger jet can get bumpy in transatlantic flight – Airships could do the same route with a pen balanced on the tip without falling down.

    If you ever have lived and worked in a submerged concrete shell bubble hanging just below the surface like me (see the black and white sub on mooring ) you would picture underwater living different.
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46713498/submerged-living-space-bubble-concept-basics/

    But back to topic – how to build small structures that can survive ANY seastate:
    rescue pod
    Isn’t the obvious answer given by todays rescue pods. A wave impact resistant shell. Not very comfy when rolled over on the surface? – so ballast it an submerge it to the point where you get rid of the violent wave movements. Where is this point? Exactly here:
    submarine on mooring
    Can you have mobility – yes – but that would be the “captain nemo float out” already. If it is stationary it is the “ocean sphere”

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