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oceanic business development, mining, seafood, energy

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This topic contains 48 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 49 total)
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  • #22689

    talking about oceanic business development

    i had rather this in mind than a “flag discussion”.

    Nautilus Deep Sea Mining

    float

    Bali Hai Floating Hotel
    bali hai

    Oceanic Energy Tech
    adriatic

    etc….

    #22690
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Please explain how those billion-dollar vessels are not flagged.

    In any case, i cannot afford those vessels, or the rent for one room on them. Just the yearly rent TSI wants for one room would pay for a oceananic floating platform for me.

    #22691
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I dare to say that it is not what seasteading can do for you but what you can do for seasteading.

    Some, have contributed millions so far to this ideal. Otherwise, TSI couldn’t have been here… Other, not so wealthy, but otherwise enthusiastic towards the same ideal, have contributed with feedback, experience based ideas of “how to”, and with an overall willingness to participate in such an exiting endeavor.

    On a realistic level, all those efforts are “equal”, because we all gave something, whatever we could afford… Even fear based criticism has positive value (at least to me), since it represented a legit question of how and why one should evolve out of a conditioned state of being.

    I also dare to say that some are spending too much time worrying about scenarios of what if “a gun boat comes along” or what if “our flag is not {recognized}” or what if UN doesn’t give a shit about us, and overall trying to micromanage and figure out every little fricking detail of such a complex project like seasteading. Just plan to the best of knowledge and execute accordingly. That’s it.

    It also seems to me that some are wasting way too much time worrying about the impact of “what if I go seasteading” on their “precious existence”, as if loosing the security of such a “decent” 9 to 5 job, or, for others, departing a more or less “well to do” upper crust or intellectual wannabe status would be devastating to their ego.

    My view is that everybody should take a chill pill and rest assured that nobody gets out of here alive and there is no “USER MANUAL” when it comes to seasteading, but just one simple guideline: If you are a “SOLID” seastead, meaning well financed and well connected, nobody’s gonna fuck with you.

    #22692
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I wish i was well financed and well connected, but i am not, and i have nothing to contribute to those who can buy whatever they want from someone else. I am counting my dollars, i want to know what i am facing as a single person out on the water. The first 400sqft of floor space will be the most pricey to me, the next 1200sqft will cost almost the same, and the economics get even better from there. If it’s possible to add a business to my future on the water, that would be great. I’d like to know what i could do to encourage this. That’s all i can “do for seasteading”, because heck, even talking to seasteaders, like here, gets me nowhere. A year in #seasteading on freenode got me nowhere. Oceanopolus, besides me, you’re the only one here who i know has built, floated, titled a boat, sailed out of sight of land, except you are now staying in the shallows around islands, you’d prefer i go to hell, and i prefer to float out of sight of land (even if i choose to stay for a while in the usa EEZ). If i stay out for a year, keep copious records of everything, there is still nothing i can contribute simply because everyone else is talking “SOLID, well connected, billionaire seasteads”, which i simply won’t be allowed to be part of, and none of my data would pertain to. It’s very frustrating. There is no history i can learn from to talk in the right words to the USCG about a liveaboard vessel that’s designed to never float back to a dock at land, and isn’t a boat. Patri Friedman has been talking seasteading for 30 years, and the very basics have not been addressed, and pushing to get a question answered raises vitriol. Seriously, the only thing i have learned from being on this forum is that i’d be better off not being on this forum!

    #22693
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Ken Sims

    Generally the discussions about vessels flying a “flag of convenience” involve being registered with some country other than the United States. In particular, finding a country which specializes in providing “flags of convenience” and will not make any particular effort to enforce their own laws upon the vessel and its occupants so long at they avoid doing anything blatant.

    This doesn’t guarantee non-interference though. As soon as the vessel becomes big enough (in terms of profit or scientific progress, or arms trade etc), the major powers wiil be willing to subdue it. And it won’t take much: one phone call to the ambassador of the country that registered the vessel — and the country will suddenly be interested in the affairs of the vessel.
    It’s possible to become a DIY hermit in that way though. But it’s also possible to be a DIY hermit on earth.


    spark

    Governments tax people, businesses, properties…
    and whatever they can tax. The taxation is often a limiting factor to the business.
    Outside of EEZ, on the ‘high seas’ there is more sovereignty. Sovereign seasteading entities can compete against
    eachother with minimal interference from governments and taxation.

    I don’t think it’s right to contrast governments and seasteads, or taxes and seasteads. Seastead can have its own government and can also set taxes…
    Also, about taxes, corporations care less about taxes than about profits. Some country can have high taxes and still bring in higher profits than country with low taxes. I’d say the ease of doing business and overall business climate are more important than the amount of gathered taxes. Taxes can be quite useful for society if done right, so they shouldn’t be set too low or too high. Think of government as of corporation in the business field of sovereignty which gets the revenue in the form of taxes.


    KatOnTri

    So i am asking if anyone has a reason for a business to be afloat, this would facilitate having a structure the business would agree to move to.
    So while Sparky (and others) keeps saying there’s wide open freedom and lack of regulations and government interference, i’d like to know how that is. And i am sure any business owner would like to know also.
    Ellmer mentioned tethered deep-draft ship ports, and deepsea mining, and fish farming, none of which can be conducted just anywhere.

    I see two reasons: freedom or opportunities. Business owners will move if they like freedom, that can be provided by founders who obtain sovereignty. So for this reason obtaining sovereignty is of high priority. Second reason is opportunities. If some place has a lot of skilled, smart and free people, I’m sure there are ways of making money off them by way of selling services. Usually people speak about three sectors of economy:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_hypothesis
    The way I see it, a team of founders buys sovereignty. The founders provide fair laws and ideology maintenance. They invest in sovereignty so that they will have profits later in the form of taxes. It’s like sovereignty is a part of primary sector because it’s a natural resource. Sovereignty makes it easier to build factories, produce and manufacture goods because there’s a big deficit of high-quality sovereignty. So there’s a stimulus for corporations to register in the new country, import other raw resources and create the product there.
    Because the country starts to generate a lot of second sector activity, the service providers start to move there, the reason for that is the opportunities to earn money off second sector workers. Due to all of this, the founders get a high ROI, now they can reinvest profits or cash out. If you look at the most profitable corporations today, they reinvest a lot of money back in the R&D. So the seasteads will be pressed to do that because of competition. They will become high-tech and after that the founders are rich so that they are able to make the country non-profit, that is redirect taxes to non-proft corporations or even stop tax gathering temporarily. If the founders are altruistic, they can make the country non-profit right from the start. What matters is the end product.
    You will say it’s not possible, yet Asian Tigers did just that:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers
    They exploited sovereignty to become high-tech countries. They used to be Third World before that.
    You are right about Ellmer theory in that he speaks of sea businesses and not seasteads. Floating port or brewery can’t do much progress, because they don’t have sovereignty. They become extensions of someone else’s country. Only sovereignty can create a complex economic model with vertical integration. I actually think the engineering research by Ellmer is great, but without politics all this engineering will continue to be used by NSA worshippers. Wild West didn’t result in a cowboy paradise.

    I am counting my dollars, i want to know what i am facing as a single person out on the water.
    That’s all i can “do for seasteading”
    If it’s possible to add a business to my future on the water, that would be great. I’d like to know what i could do to encourage this.

    You want to live as a hermit, so what stops you? You’ve built a boat and sailed on it. So keep getting better at it. You want to get away from everybody — there’s nothing preventing it. But I don’t think you can get someone else’s business on your solitary boat. Because for that a team is needed, to do large-scale engineering, to control safety, to do talks with other vessels and with those who are interested why the business on your platform isn’t paying taxes etc.


    OCEANOPOLIS

    I also dare to say that some are spending too much time worrying about scenarios of what if “a gun boat comes along” or what if “our flag is not {recognized}” or what if UN doesn’t give a shit about us, and overall trying to micromanage and figure out every little fricking detail of such a complex project like seasteading. Just plan to the best of knowledge and execute accordingly. That’s it.

    I wouldn’t say people are worried. They simply act according to their beliefs. Everything is relative. You think that a gun boat probably won’t come, others think it has 99% chance of happening. It’s not a question of being worried but of calculating probabilities.

    just one simple guideline: If you are a “SOLID” seastead, meaning well financed and well connected, nobody’s gonna fuck with you.

    To become like that, sovereignty is needed. Otherwise, the seastead will be harassed and exploited hardly in relation to political questions. You may think that I’m worried too much, however my opinion isn’t based on emotions but on information that I have.

    #22694

    Oceanic business development is not in discussion anymore it is a reality.
    Concrete CIDS platform, Glomar Beaufort 1
    glomar

    Condeep Rig big energy business
    condeep floating site

    Ship repair load unload operation afloat big ocean transport and service business.
    military floating pier

    Floating Yacht business headquaters…be taxpayer to no one…handle global trade empires
    yacht

    Space payload launcher, use mobililty and buoyancy at sea for things that can not be done on land…
    launcher

    Floating houses, settle in bays and floodplains where other housing can not stand…
    houses

    Undersea Tunnels charging fees.

    tunnel
    ….

    Ocean has a point (that there is no point in try to figure out and discuss every little fricking detail) – in no real world project neither on land nor on the ocean you can clear all possible scenarios upfront, by discussing endless “what if scenarios” – you have to jump in and play the match – to see what is the outcome at the end. Things are undetermined in their very Nature until you DECIDE something or DO something – (greetings from Quantum Theroy).

    The discussion here is also going as if oceanic business development would be something that “needs to be discussed” BEFORE some real steps should be taken. I gave you 3 pictures of oceanic business ventures that are working and making money as we speak – so the topic “is oceanic business possible to implement or a pipe dream that will be crossed by …” is not in discussion any more. People who are discussing this still just need to get more informed.

    I gave you three pictures of oceanic business ventures above – i give you a couple more here…

    Non of those projects had flag issues or coast guard issues – lets be realistic folks – business is the driving factor here – not imaginary problem fields…

    Ken, can you enlighten us on global oceanic fish cages and oceanic aquaculture to feed a world population growing a billion per decade – in this space … – food for billions is next big thing comming up after energy tech, and deep sea mining i assume…

    #22695
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    ellmer

    Oceanic business development is not in discussion it is a reality.

    Seasteading is the concept of creating permanent dwellings at sea, called seasteads, outside the territory claimed by the government of any standing nation. You are speaking not about seasteading oceanic business, but about simple oceanic business. I don’t get, what is your point? That it is possible to do business at sea? This site is called seasteading.org not oceanicbusiness.org, yet you continue to spam forum with examples of ocean business not related to seasteading per se.




    The discussion here is also going as if oceanic business development would be something that “needs to be discussed” BEFORE some real steps should be taken. I gave you 3 pictures of oceanic business ventures that are working and making money as we speak – so the topic “is oceanic business possible to implement or a pipe dream that will be crossed by …” is not in discussion any more. People who are discussing this still just need to get more informed.

    Yes, it needs to be discussed, if the talking is about seasteading oceanic business, not simply oceanic business. No one knows for sure how would states react if a Condeep Rig or an Undersea Tunnel appear out of nowhere and start doing business without paying taxes or caring about other states.
    You also misquote a lot… For example, you cite KatOnTri:

    is oceanic business possible to implement or a pipe dream that will be crossed by

    Yet he said the following:

    Because unless the platform is bringing in money from some business, seasteading will remain a pipe dream of hot air, or a rich person’s diversion.

    The talk was about seasteading oceanic business, not any oceanic business. It’s one thing to make oceanic business and another thing to make seasteading oceanic business.




    a world population growing a billion per decade – in this space … – food for billions is next big thing comming up after energy tech, and deep sea mining i assume…

    There are predictions about population growth slowing down considerably. Also, “food for billions” isn’t the new thing, Green Revolution already did that many years ago. It’s nothing new under the sun: mobility, food for billions, energy breakthroughs and mining — all has been done on land, but it’s one thing to do it under existing state flag and another thing to create new country for doing it.




    I gave you three pictures of oceanic business ventures above – i give you a couple more here…

    Four of these look like computer generated images.




    Ocean has a point (that there is no point in try to figure out and discuss every little fricking detail) – in no real world project neither on land nor on the ocean you can clear all possible scenarios upfront, by discussing endless “what if scenarios” – you have to jump in and play the match – to see what is the outcome at the end.

    It’s no use jumping straight in hell. I imagine that there’s a war and you with Oceanopolis come up to the general and say: “No use in planning it all upfront, maybe it’s 99% that a gunboat destroys us, but let’s try that out anyway instead of considering how to survive”.




    Things are undetermined in their very Nature until you DECIDE something or DO something – (greetings from Quantum Theroy).

    There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics. And gravity hasn’t been quantized yet, so don’t speak as if there’s absolute quantum truth. That’s not to say quantum theory isn’t the deepest level, there is also quantum field theory and even deeper thing — string theory.

    #22696

    Third party interference freedom has always been a very important business development factor.

    I suggest to introduce the business interference freedom scale of 1 to 10

    1… a scale one is a place where you have hundreds of different neighbours and institutions that all can and will interfere with your business. Imagine a City center, you will have neighborhood initatives that move against your project, city development plans, that will force their vision of development, tax politics, supervision, red tape, on your project. Political parties that cross for political reasons. Several “enforcement buerocrats” all over you. (City counsel, state authorities of all kind, achitecure restrictions, noiserestrictions, labor unions, all wanting to vampire “their share” of your business budget, and redtaping your project for all kind of reasons, doing business there is like walking a barbwired minefield. It is a place where a business man can do “almost nothing” with “almost any amount of money” in almost “no possible setup”.

    2 intermediary

    3 intermediary

    4 intermediary

    5 intermediary

    6 intermediary

    7 intermediary

    8 intermediary

    9 intermediary

    10 …. A scale ten is a place where you can do anything you please, with nobodies law or “development vision”, tax authority, etc… forced on you following your own vision, your own ethics, your own politics, this kind of space is normally located on some kind of ” frontier” like the american settlement outposts in the prairie, internet cyberspace, or a space colony (in near future).

    The last places on earth where a business man can open that kind of business space is the open ocean outside EEZ . One of the simpliest ways to implement such a business venture is placing it in a partially or completly submerged concrete sphere of 30m diameter in open ocean. Nobody has jurisdiction to interfer, nobody has a “practical means” to interfere. It would be almost like a colony in space, with the only difference that it is feasible and even economic to build right now.

    read more : http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56239662/oceanic-concrete-sphere-habitat/

    We see already airports moving out of city centers, fabrication sites moving out of suburban areas, first world factories moving to third world countries, stem cell reseach centers looking for host countries, going away from “high interference centers” to areas with low interference.

    It is easy to predict that with a population growth of 1 billion per decade everybody steping at the feet of everybody all large scale fabrication sites will finally end up on the ocean which holds 99% of all space on earth and is the last “interference free space” left on the planet.

    Sabmiller and its floating brewery is leading the way….

    As a sphere is the most efficient way to enclose a space – and the ocean facilitates the building of spheres – it also requires the building of spheres due to Draupner Events – it is also easy to predict that a lot of industry will end in concrete spheres floating in the ocean.

    At the way to this “final status before taking off for space colonizaton” concrete floating honeycomb and shell structures that create a relative interference free (2-9 depending on the site) space in protected bays in front of existing harbor cities will be the intermediary step that we see already happening.

    In this context also see why a floating platform in front of a ranch in the Colombian Caribbean would have a high interference freedom score…http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t46775796/seasteading-outpost-belize-a-practical-approach-how-to-find-/

    See also why doing business like Captain Nemo (Motto Mobilis in Mobili) will give you a clear 10 on the interference freedom scale…
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t43942461/the-captain-nemo-float-out-seasteading/

    We already see global business empires directed from floating headquaters moving from continent to continent being taxpayer to nobody.
    abramovich

    Yacht Eclipse
    Roman Abramovich is the 9th richest Russian with an estimated net worth of USD 10 billion.

    Developing the key technology of ocean colonization and business development, key player network, foothold in ocean colonization…
    http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t49529137/corporate-sponsoring-foothold-in-ocean-colonization/

    #22697
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    If the billionaires were going to do this, it would already be done. They have no problems doing as they please on land, it’s the poor people who are the oppressed who need a way out. Your discussions simply are not oriented to the masses, and the rich are ignoring you.

    #22698
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    a scale one is a place where you have hundreds of different neighbours and institutions that all can and will interfere with your business
    A scale ten is a place where you can do anything you please, with nobodies law

    First sentence is about an actual democracy, last sentence is about totalitarianism. So your ideal is a dictatorship where you don’t have to make any type of consensus? Or maybe you want to get away from everybody like KatOnTri.

    We already see global business empires directed from floating headquaters moving from continent to continent being taxpayer to nobody.

    Tax isn’t a function of space. It’s a function of sovereignty. European empires had colonies everywhere in the world, and such diverse geolocation didn’t stop them from collecting taxes.

    Nobody has jurisdiction to interfer, nobody has a “practical means” to interfere. It would be almost like a colony in space, with the only difference that it is feasible and even economic to build right now.

    The states do have jurisdiction to interfere. According to them, vessel without a flag is an unknown and dangerous structure. More so if the vessel tries to develop industry and science. Major powers have all the means to occupy or destroy it. Look at how much unrecognized countries are there in the world. The seastead isn’t conceptually different. If the major powers don’t abide any consistent sovereign law on land, why would they do it on sea? Do you really believe the US or China will sit down and watch how an unrecognized strong and free country is forming right before them and not interfere?

    A scale ten is a place where you can do anything you please, with nobodies law or “development vision”, tax authority, etc… forced on you following your own vision, your own ethics, your own politics,
    The last places on earth where a business man can open that kind of business space is the open ocean outside EEZ .

    Well, you yourself gave examples of sea business. Why don’t those structures go without a flag? Why would they pay taxes, if, according to you, they can do whatever they want? Do they like to give money away so much?

    this kind of space is normally located on some kind of ” frontier” like the american settlement outposts in the prairie, internet cyberspace, or a space colony (in near future).

    Wild West didn’t result in a cowboy paradise. It was subdued really quickly by the Feds. And the Internet was devastated by the NSA. The same will be on the ocean, if seasteading ideals are not promoted hard enough. It will happen even faster, because governments have more resources now.

    We see already airports moving out of city centers, fabrication sites moving out of suburban areas, first world factories moving to third world countries, stem cell reseach centers looking for host countries, going away from “high interference centers” to areas with low interference.

    Moving doesn’t mean going out of state jurisdiction. First, factories and airports can’t move too far away from the cities. Because they need workers and users. Second, first world factories move to third world because globalization established an exploitation regime. People from third world are exploited in a neo-colonialist fashion, if you do not agree, then explain gigantic trade deficits of first world. Third, stem cell centers may find host countries, but those havens will be liquidated sooner or later, like is happening now with tax havens.

    It is easy to predict that with a population growth of 1 billion per decade everybody steping at the feet of everybody all large scale fabrication sites will finally end up on the ocean which holds 99% of all space on earth and is the last “interference free space” left on the planet.

    There are predictions about population growth slowing down considerably. Also, there’s plenty of land space, no need for stepping at someone’s feet. And moving factories to the ocean isn’t an answer because they need workers still.

    Sabmiller and its floating brewery is leading the way….

    It was a concept. Designers create them all the time, and often they’re unrealistic. Even if the brewery is to be created someday — it would be created for mobility reasons not for seasteading reasons.

    At the way to this “final status before taking off for space colonizaton” concrete floating honeycomb and shell structures that create a relative interference free (2-9 depending on the site) space in protected bays in front of existing harbor cities will be the intermediary step that we see already happening.

    I don’t see anything happening except common business. Show me at least 1 functioning seastead. Seastead needs businesses, but seastead isn’t equal to business. I don’t see why are you hoping for interference-free spheres when there’s actually a world scandal about NSA spying going on right now.

    See also why doing business like Captain Nemo (Motto Mobilis in Mobili) will give you a clear 10 on the interference freedom scale…

    You yourself on your site wrote about anti-submarine laws.

    #22699

    Wait a moment insisting in a “private sphere” is not a bad thing – the nanny state interfering, spying, and taxing every squaremeter is the bad thing – the neighbor envy not let prosper any business is a bad thing…
    private sphere habitat ocean

    The ocean sphere is the ultimate privacy tool – i agree that freedom on frontiers has historicly short shelve life … until the oceans are “fully policed and claimed” and nanny state is implemented globally we may have a century of freedom on the oceans… entrepeneurs of the blue planet – hurry to take advantage of it…get a foothold in ocean colonization….http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t49529137/corporate-sponsoring-foothold-in-ocean-colonization/

    #22700
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ellmer, your site lists email address for you. I sent a question a couple months ago, and have not heard back from you. It was in regards to attaching to cast cement floatation cells.

    The webpage you just referred to is “sponsoring” ocean colonisation? In what way?

    #22701
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    ellmer

    Wait a moment insisting in a “private sphere” is not a bad thing – the nanny state interfering, spying, and taxing every squaremeter is the bad thing – the neighbor envy not let prosper any business is a bad thing…

    But there will still have to be regulation. Somebody has to organize traffic or decide how approximately will the spheres be located in a sea city etc. Or consider if a sphere comes to the city and starts to vibrate wildly or play very loudly noise music night and day in the public space.
    It’s still the same as on land. I agree there’s too much interfering on land, but that doesn’t mean we have to think in extremes, between totalitarianism and Kafkaesque bureaucracy hell. On your scale 4,5,6,7 — good choices, yet it seems you’re aiming for 10. Besides, you can get 10 even on land, no sea spheres needed. See Lykov family.




    The ocean sphere is the ultimate privacy tool – i agree that freedom on frontiers has historicly short shelve life … until the oceans are “fully policed and claimed” and nanny state is implemented globally we may have a century of freedom on the oceans…

    So you propose eternal flight from the Big Brother? Right now it’s not like the choice is “fight or flight”. I don’t see why we have to give up in this situation and run to space after a century (and I bet it will be less than a century). Unless the interference scales to violence, there’s no real reason for escaping, peaceful coexistence is quite possible. And for that country building is needed.

    #22702

    The point is in the combination of high interference freedom score – near to a population center – at low real estate cost of (2122 USD per squaremeter according MIT for ORES) and at 166 USD per squaremeter for a sub surface habitat in my business plan. The point is how much bang (9 scale, city near) do you get for the bug.
    Cartagena

    I would opt for this site. Cartagenas Skyscrappers still in sight – 3 minutes in boat. 9 scale. Nav light requirement at night is the “only ruling to apply”.

    I agree that there are still 9 scale sites on Land (in a lost valley in the Karakorum region for example) but interference freedom 3min from city center is hard to get unless you float out on the ocean…

    Don’t take my word for it just ask for the “real estate prices per squaremeter” and the “construction requirements” and the “business restrictions” for any building lot in any big city in a radius where you have the city center skyscrappers in sight and compare the options.

    KatOnTri, please contact: info@tolimared.com – i am not aware of “open conversation” please try again.

    #22703
    Profile photo of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Nav light requirement at night is the “only ruling to apply”.

    How about pollution laws or sailing laws?




    interference freedom 3min from city center is hard to get unless you float out on the ocean…

    It’s possible to live in a trailer in the city. The city will probably apply to the sphere most of the laws it applies to a trailer, and even more laws like those anti-submarine laws.




    Don’t take my word for it just ask for the “real estate prices per squaremeter” and the “construction requirements” and the “business restrictions” for any building lot in any big city in a radius where you have the city center skyscrappers in sight and compare the options.

    I’m sure there are free parking lots with skyscrapers in sight where you can park a trailer. Also, why the need in skyscrapers? Your said before that factories are moving to the outskirts of the city, so for doing business it’s best to move with them.

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