oceanic business development, mining, seafood, energy
January 4, 2014 at 7:11 am #22600
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
China, India, Brazil, Nautilus Mining, and now Germany, the race for deep sea mining concessions is on. Oceanic Business Development is happening on large scale. Who are the key players, what is the next big thing to come…
http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56147408/germany-hopes-to-mine-raw-materials-in-indian-ocean/January 17, 2014 at 2:01 pm #22669
Has any business other than oil companies have any desire to be offshore? Is it possible that economics of worker living space, business space rental, vs the transportation costs of raw and finished materials related to the business on the seastead, convince a business to move off of land? If you build a floating business park, who will deal with the employee of one business who is caught pouring oil into the ocean, will the USCG confiscate the entire business park? Can you get insurance to cover losses to the businesses from storms, sinking, loss of drinking water or electricity?
I can’t find a reason for a business to relocate to a floating situation, unless their business requires them to be where that vessel is at that time. Can you?January 17, 2014 at 3:52 pm #22671
Yes, a lot of businesses have a “desire” to go offshore. Yes, the economics of cheaper offshore operational cost vs. land based taxes, regulations, red tape, etc will convince ANY business to move offshore. The CG will not “confiscate” shit. The management and the insurance will deal with that spill AND the CG. Yes, you can get such comprehensive insurance from Lloyd’s or other maritime insurers.
If you can’t find a reason for a business to relocate offshore is because:
A) You don’t have a business and you don’t have to deal with all the bullshit that a business owner has to go through in order to make a buck or two.
B) Your understanding of how “things work” is limited by your individual superficial perception of the so called reality.January 17, 2014 at 6:28 pm #22673
Please enlighten us.
Im my years of reading online, the USCG has indeed taken boats for being where they shouldn’t be. They’ve also levied huge fines for pollution, bad documentation, and improper this or that. When you say “The management and the insurance will deal with that spill AND the CG.”, i am asking if you own the platform, who is the management?, and when they lose your seastead for you because they didn’t have a grip on reality (as you say), then what? Lets say you rent out a houseboat platform, and the tenant repeatedly is warned by the USCG that they are breaking some law, but no one has told you, you don’t think they will take the boat?
Or, lets say i am totally clueless and braindead, and you plus Ellmer give a lesson here on how to attract some random business to a floating platform out of sight of land. What the heck, tell us how you’d do that in 10ft waves with the floating platform moving around and the employees all being seasick. Please. Without going into why i am the scum of the earth and the huge amount of contempt and loathing you have for me, lets hear how you’d talk a small business owner to move out offshore to your seastead. Can you do that, please?
Because unless the platform is bringing in money from some business, seasteading will remain a pipe dream of hot air, or a rich person’s diversion.
And btw, as a usa citizen, it doesn’t matter where you are int he world, you are still bound by labor laws, tax laws, pollution laws, civil rights laws, and all the other laws as on land. Anyone owning their own land with their own business on it will have the same problems with that business if it were on a seastead, with the added problems of it heaving in waves and sinking.January 17, 2014 at 8:31 pm #22674
Why would I waste my time “enlightening” somebody who thinks that “seasteading will remain a pipe dream of hot air, or a rich person’s diversion.”?January 18, 2014 at 9:38 am #22677
Oceanopolis, thank you for your input. When i asked for your input on how my beliefs are wrong, you reinforced my opinion that living on the ocean will be a do-it-yourself approach, and that no one has a clue how or why a land-based business would ever be afloat. Ergo, it’s a pipe dream of those who cannot afford it or cannot figure out how to do it, for they cannot make money on the seastead to support the seastead. Well, saves money on not allotting pricey square footage on anything but personal space. Even you are designing for only personal space in calm waters in shelter of land masses (islands) and not the open ocean. Thanks again.January 18, 2014 at 9:52 am #22678
This site is broken. I know Ellmer has posted here in responce to something i said, but i do not see his responce on this webpage.January 18, 2014 at 10:57 am #22679
The site is NOT broken.
Notifications of forum postings (and some other activities) are placed in the Activity Stream:
Using the Reply button in the Activity Stream does a reply to the notification rather than a reply to the actual posting. (Several people have done this lately.)
To make sure that a reply goes in the forum thread, it is necessary to go into the thread to reply, not use the Reply button in the Activity Stream.
TSI Primary Spamfighter and Volunteer AdminJanuary 18, 2014 at 11:34 am #22680
This is the first i have heard of an “Activity Stream”. So you are saying than this “forum” is not the place to discuss things? What is a “notification”? Is the “Activity Stream” a list of “notifications” that a post was made in the “forum”, which isn’t visable in the “forum” itself?January 18, 2014 at 11:40 am #22681
When i go to the link you provided for the “Activity Stream” where people are now posting as if that is the forum, i see part of Ellmer’s post, and if i click on “[Read more]”, there is an icon which makes a visual rotating motion, and nothing else happens. Several minutes have gone by, and i don’t know what else Ellmer said after “At the end no large scale…”. Why are people not posting in the forum?January 18, 2014 at 12:26 pm #22683
The first-level things that go in the activity stream are:
* notification of new forum topics/threads/discussions (whatever you want to call it)
* notification of forum replies in an actual forum topic/thread/discussion
* notification of new user registrations
* notification of new blog posts
* notification of blog comments if the person is a registered user
* notification of group activity (of which we have close to zero)
* Entering something in the “What’s new, [name]?” box
These things can be replied to, but the reply is strictly in the Activity Stream. Replying to notifications of forum or blog activity in the Activity Stream does not post to the actual blog entry or forum thread.
In the actual forums is where discussions should take place.
The Activity Stream is somewhat similar to the Facebook News Feed, with automatic “sharing” of various kinds of website activities. Stuff scrolls off as newer stuff comes along, so it’s not the place to have an on-going discussion.
As for the “Read More” problem, instead of clicking it, try right-clicking and selecting to open in a new tab or new window.
KenJanuary 18, 2014 at 12:41 pm #22684
and that no one has a clue how or why a land-based business would ever be afloat
My opinion is sovereignty. All dry lad is claimed by countries. Governments tax people, businesses, properties…
and whatever they can tax. The taxation is often a limiting factor to the business.
Outside of EEZ, on the ‘high seas’ there is more sovereignty. Sovereign seasteading entities can compete against
eachother with minimal interference from governments and taxation.
We are not sure where a competition like that can lead, but there are some examples as Hong Kong, Singapore, … etc
I think, it is possible that a seas has an advantage, compared to a land-based business.
I also think that, meanwhile lots of people will stay on land, and I think that is all right.
I also think seasteading is all right too.
I like the sea. If I am Free to Choose; I choose seasteading.
Respectfully yours;January 18, 2014 at 1:20 pm #22685
But Sparky, as a usa citizen, especially on a usa flagged vessel, you are NOT exempt from any taxes or regulations, just like you are not exempt from taxes if you are in Hong Kong or Singapore. Same as if you flag the vessel anywhere else. And if the vessel is unregistered, the default procedure is for any nation finding the vessel to sink it. If you are aboard a vessel anywhere that’s 100% legal, and are smoking a joint or duplicating a dvd, and the USCG visits, you can be and likely will be arrested.
So i am asking if anyone has a reason for a business to be afloat, this would facilitate having a structure the business would agree to move to. Besides, as far as i know, a vessel engaged in carrying paying customers, such as owning a seastead and renting space to a business, must have a licensed captain on board at all times, which is yet another added expense to being afloat. I see this is a problem, and i am asking for solutions.
My original question was about open ocean and free-floating. Ellmer mentioned tethered deep-draft ship ports, and deepsea mining, and fish farming, none of which can be conducted just anywhere. You farm where the fish can grow, you mine where the minerals are, you anchor the port in shallow water where there’s a place on land to eventually offload to. The running thread about those situations involved anchoring or burning fuel to maintain position. The fish farm involves water cleanliness planning within anyone’s EEZ, as well as staying in water that’s not too cold or too hot or polluted, and staying out of shipping lanes. While it’s worth it to farm few fish for a family seastead in the open ocean, it’s hardly worth it to transport the harvest to land. Any fishing business that runs a mothership, well, it’s still a ship that transports to shore, it’s not a seastead.January 18, 2014 at 1:38 pm #22686
Generally the discussions about vessels flying a “flag of convenience” involve being registered with some country other than the United States. In particular, finding a country which specializes in providing “flags of convenience” and will not make any particular effort to enforce their own laws upon the vessel and its occupants so long at they avoid doing anything blatant.January 18, 2014 at 3:12 pm #22687
I understand “flag of convenience”, however there’s ramifications. You may not be able to get insurance, and some flags carry connotations of mere nods to regulations. Some such flags appear to invite boarding for inspections, because invariably infractions regarding the vessel are found, generating income for the nation who’s EEZ that vessel was caught in.
And the flag doesn’t address the citizenship of those on board. You are not exempt from income tax if you serve as a hand on a vessel flagged anywhere else. Businesses are not exempt from taxes, unless they are not in usa EEZ and not registered in the usa. Just the same, if you are a usa citizen running a business registered in any other country, you will still be required to pay income taxes on that job.
So while Sparky (and others) keeps saying there’s wide open freedom and lack of regulations and government interference, i’d like to know how that is. And i am sure any business owner would like to know also. From where i sit, you just might need to allow any law enforcement from any country to board you on the open ocean, and you get to complain about it only afterwards. If you are on the Cay Sal Bank, and a Cuban gunboat comes alongside and wants to board, are you going to refuse? (yeas i know the Cay Sal belongs to Bahamas, but that gunboat has more guns than you will) If they arrest you and drop you in a Cuban jail, then sink your boat for being un-manned and drifting in a sea lane, who will you complain to, since the usa has no embassy in Cuba?
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