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Occupy vs. Seasteading

Home Forums Community General Chat Occupy vs. Seasteading

This topic contains 79 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of elspru elspru 3 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 80 total)
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  • #16198
    Profile photo of chadsims
    chadsims
    Participant

    i can see where you’re headed… BUT I still think that Water, power, shouldn’t be part of the ‘tax’, They should be privately run so if a seasteader doesn’t use it, he doesn’t pay for it. Since many sea steadersare libertarians, many would want to live off the grid even the sea stead grid.

    If you allow a ‘generator stead’ and a ‘water stead’ to offer services like that you’ll help the local economy by having that many more bussinessses and not take away the ability for anyone to not pay for those. As for a disability fund… i’d DONATE to one, and set up my own but i would be against it being manditory. (LOL As for foreign aid… the US gives it to pretty much every third world contry, and half of it ends up in the hands of dictators that never use it to help the people)

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    #16199
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    all those specialized services to be provided within the same seastead, not on separate seasteads, available to everyone and benefiting everyone, private or commercial.

    I have no problem if the “hardcore liberterian in you :)” wants to stay of the grid, regarding whatever services. BUT, math is math, no matter the politics.

    You’d better be prepared to buy your own small “oil tanker” in order to transport, buy and store youre own fuel, in order to run your own generator, in order to run your own water maker. You’d better be prepared to maintain and operate your own equipment according to establish international maritime law environmental guidlines, (the seastead will have to operate according to that), and also to provide for supply and maintanance of your equipment in case it needs repairs, parts, etc.

    And let me tell you right now, these are not fantasies, but facts of daily life OUT THERE. You will pay a very high price for being off the grid, since there is no West Marine or dockside delivery 1000nm offshore :)

    #16206
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    If the colony is a cluster of small seasteads with 1-10 people on board, the seasteads would be mainly providing for themselves or trading with each other. Good luck trying to tax them. Another scenario is one or more large ships or seasteads with a flotilla of individual seasteads around it. The ship would probably provide utilities and onboard security, some of the cost being passed on to visitors from the small units when they trade with businesses on the large ship.

    I don’t see any call for mandatory contributions to health care. Prior to World War II, people paid for their own health care. Employer provided medical insurance came about as a result of wage and price controls during the war. Third party payment systems are doomed to fail since there is no market incentive for users to comparison shop to keep prices down. Also, the grossly excessive costs can also be attributed to extreme protectionism, rent seeking, and regulation in the industry. Most of what physicians do can be done by software for self care, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants.

    #16210
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    1-10 people, whatever works should be the name of the game. Lol, I guess the moment you mention the word “taxes” you will be starring at the barrel of a shotgun :)

    In terms of health care, my comments above were regarding a seastead 200’+ LOA, 50+ people aboard, navigating deep offshore, lets say 500 nm+. Since such seastead will stay there for an unlimited time, I can only imagine that we will need a mini-hospital onboard and a mini-dental clinic, staffed with few doctors and nurses to take care of a number of ilnesses, and I am talking more than a minor cut or a common flu. Should be able to handle certain surgery, long term treatment and medication, etc.

    Otherwise, in case of a real emergency, people will die, because 1000 nm offshore even a CoastGuard airlift (assuming that we are in their range and that they will come) will take a long time which might be to late.

    In this case, for such small medical business (only 50 potential patients) I guess is whatever works best, privately owned or “seastead” owned is really less important. The most important think is to have it there. It is a MUST in my oppinion, specially if we will have family with small kids onboard.

    #16213
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Assuming that the smallest size seastead that can GO offshore and STAY offshore should be no smaller than 200′ LOA (length over all) and population 50+ ,

    that (200ft=60m) would be enough for 1000 people, i.e. in phi-boat form 52m x 32m x 20m

    can home 55 people in a boat 19.8m x 12.1m x 7.7m

    that would also keep it under the 20m “interference zone”.

    the above services (all essential to the proper function of the seasteading society onboard) are much, much cheaper when provided in “bulk”, rather then being left as an individual choice.

    Sure for a boat or seastead centralized services are natural. Each boat though can have their own services.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16217
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    to have 1000 people on a 200′ LOA seastead!

    Assuming such seastead as “barge like”, 200’x100’=20,000.00 sq.ft

    Assuming 10 decks you’ll have 20,000.00×10=200,000.00 sq.ft

    Divided by 1000=200 sq.ft/person living space with no room for NOTHING ELSE on that seastead.

    We are talking people here, not sardines. Please, Elspru, a little common sense, dude.

    #16220
    Profile photo of chadsims
    chadsims
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    to have 1000 people on a 200′ LOA seastead!

    Assuming such seastead as “barge like”, 200’x100’=20,000.00 sq.ft

    Assuming 10 decks you’ll have 20,000.00×10=200,000.00 sq.ft

    Divided by 1000=200 sq.ft/person living space with no room for NOTHING ELSE on that seastead.

    We are talking people here, not sardines. Please, Elspru, a little common sense, dude.

    200SQFT of living space is big. You sould easily get 100sqft per person would be a small room for each person to live in. So i’d say take it to 150 SQ FT per person. Leaves you with lots of extra room. Now if you factor in families, make 100SQFT rooms for everyone, one will be sleeping TWO per room. That’s plenty of sleeping room for two. The extra 50 would be good for a small kitchenette. Now if some of the families are sleeping two to a room, two boys can sleep in a room togeather with a bunk bed, the two parents, that frees up alot more room, those families would have 400 sqft to play with if going with the small rooms. (150*4=600-200=400)

    I’m an american so it seems small, but that is more than decent in many contries.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRvsWuWNUM guy’s less than 100sqft house.

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    #16222
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Because it ain’t gonna be no 200 sq.ft. left of it! Because, (why do I have to repeat myself?) that’s ALL the space on that seastead! There is room for NOTHING else!

    Where you gonna put tanks for tons of fuel? water? engine(s)? generator(s)? AC units? all the piping? gangways? kitchen(s)? food storage? public spaces? trash incinerators? holding tanks? a school? medical facility? etc. All those will take @ least 4 decks space in order to supply 1000 people. You’re left with 120 sq.ft./person. That’s 11’x11′. They’ll have to live for ever on that space? Unless everibody’s on valium, it’s not going to work, socialy. Too tight.

    #16224
    Profile photo of chadsims
    chadsims
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Because it ain’t gonna be no 200 sq.ft. left of it! Because, (why do I have to repeat myself?) that’s ALL the space on that seastead! There is room for NOTHING else!

    Where you gonna put tanks for tons of fuel? water? engine(s)? generator(s)? AC units? all the piping? gangways? kitchen(s)? food storage? public spaces? trash incinerators? holding tanks? a school? medical facility? etc. All those will take @ least 4 decks space in order to supply 1000 people. You’re left with 120 sq.ft./person. That’s 11’x11′. They’ll have to live for ever on that space? Unless everibody’s on valium, it’s not going to work, socialy. Too tight.

    You had to repeat yourself because your math isn’t adding up. YOu said the ship would have 200 SQFT per person.. .right? I said you could cut that down and have people use 150 SQ FT per person. that’ll give you 50SQFT per person room for everything else. I posted a video of a guy living in 89 SQFT and that includes kitchen, shower, bed. SO 50SQFT per person leaves you 50K SQFT for storage, water treatment, sewage, schools, medical, ect, ect ect. Now I’ll admit it’s tight, but with outside food source availible to restock often it’s do able. 100 SQFT per person is livable. Definitly not comforable but if you want to argue I’d say that’s doable. With or without valium. Everyone would get their own little house like that guy has. Own kitchen, own bedroom, own shower. Plenty of room to yourself not to have to have valium. That’s not factoring family living that lets say 4 People would be given 400 SQFT. since parents share a room you’ll have a bigger living area than just four people’s cimbined because you save the room from the fourth room.

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    #16227
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    To each it’s own beliefs.

    #16232
    Profile photo of Chucker
    Chucker
    Participant

    I had 600 sq ft. No room for food to grow, no room for hallways, no room for washer/dryer. If you went to college in the US atleast remember dorms. No real usable space. Remember we all will need to work somehow on a seastead and grow some food or make some goods to sell.

    #16233
    Profile photo of chadsims
    chadsims
    Participant

    Don’t get me wrong, it wouldn’t last. No room for economy, but it would work on a housing boat purhaps for worker quarters if you need such a thing. Just saying you could house people in that space and provide for them. Just not give them anything productive to do. I’ve done worse than dorms, barracks. Smaller, tighter, smellier. All togeather worse, you can certainly survive with little space. In iraq I had probably 15-20 SQFT of room to myself. It’s doable.

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    #16234
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    200 sq ft? a seastead is a place to freekin live permanently!! not a 5 day vacation, not even a 4-year spurt and then go back to ur parents house. poymanent!

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #16243
    Profile photo of chadsims
    chadsims
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    200 sq ft? a seastead is a place to freekin live permanently!! not a 5 day vacation, not even a 4-year spurt and then go back to ur parents house. poymanent!

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    I had much less than that in the army. It’s doable. Just not preferable.

    NOW, I’m not saying I’d live on that crowded barge, but certainly won’t argue it is very liveable if neccessity demanded. I’d say that it might be a good idea to create an ‘escape barge’ of some sort for seasteads. One large boat with crowded quarters for emergencies. I’d say 50SQFT a person or less. (You could easily fit two people in 50 SQFT if you have bunk beds.

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    #16246
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    200 sq ft? a seastead is a place to freekin live permanently!! not a 5 day vacation, not even a 4-year spurt and then go back to ur parents house. poymanent!

    what do you need to do track and field in your home? lol you’d be better off swimming around the seastead.

    You’ve clearly never been on a boat. Yachts are typically rather narrow, so you’d be lucky to have 200sqft on a 30ft yacht, though couples and even families live in smaller boats than that.

    besides this whole sqft stuff is land-stead styles, what we should really be focusing on is the m^3. based on research done in submarines and space-flight, even 15-17m^3 per person is sufficient for an indefinite period of time, so 20m^3 is enough for them and between 3 and 5 metric TONS of stuff.

    BTW, I don’t know much about you’re seemingly extravagant american living conditions

    Though my living room/kitchen is 5*7m which is 376ft^2 enough for me, my partner, 2 cats, 3 rabbits, an aquarium, house-plants, mini-library, kitchen and lots of projects.

    we also have a bedroom and bathroom in an additional 3*7m ((100sqft) space, though it’s almost completely unused, except for sleeping and toilet, and one cat likes to frequent that area. Our bedroom is just covered in clothes, since it’s just idle space, we use it like a big closet/garage.

    so we could probably fit at least one more person comfortably.

    Also note that in experiments, it was found that the more common space, the less total space was required per person.

    Anyhow a 1000 people is WAY tooo much. There would be ridiculous rivalries going on between the at least the 5 different communities that can fit in it.

    I think the 57 people mark is about optimal, much more than that and communities become unstable.

    chadsims wrote:

    Don’t get me wrong, it wouldn’t last. No room for economy, but it would work on a housing boat purhaps for worker quarters if you need such a thing. Just saying you could house people in that space and provide for them. Just not give them anything productive to do. I’ve done worse than dorms, barracks. Smaller, tighter, smellier. All togeather worse, you can certainly survive with little space. In iraq I had probably 15-20 SQFT of room to myself. It’s doable.

    ‘Lead, Follow, or get out of my way.’ -Unknown

    hmmm finally found the confinement experiment page again http://history.nasa.gov/SP-483/ch3-2.htm

    revised my numbers, seems like 9.45 m^3 is enough for indefininte living, that’s a mere 4.75m or 15sqft, which is actually the amount of room that me, my partner, and cat occupy in the living room about 90% of the time (occasionally visiting kitchen/bathroom). The rest of the space is only used by bunnies.

    I had a similarly sized Guti or monk-house in which I lived for 3 weeks in Thailand, was comfortable/spacious. Had a bed, and a shelf for storing things, enough room to do yoga and basic excersize, also if take off the blanket-matress the bed became a hard wooden table.

    note that kitchen and bathrooms can be shared at the very least on a family basis as in a home, though potentially on a community basis as at the various Occupy Intentional Communities.

    There is room for economy, in terms of computers, electronics, and products that can be carried by a single person. For larger projects and communal spaces we could have larger rooms.

    Remember guys, the point of seasteading, isn’t so you can stay cooped up in your room, but so you can be part of a community, actively participating in activites at a variety of locations in and around the seastead.

    Chucker wrote:
    I had 600 sq ft. No room for food to grow,

    Er food grows Outside….

    Indoors only thing required is plants for air,

    with an aquarium 30lt is enough, even if 10lt of it is dirt,

    and that would fit in a space about 1ft by 1ft by 1ft or 31cm x 32 cm x 31 cm.

    Likely we could have centralized air for boats, though people could still have backup.

    no room for hallways, no room for washer/dryer.

    that’s preposterous, with half that space,

    we have a semi-open hallway, and do our laundry in the bathtub.

    washer/dryer :-| you people are rich, seriously does it rain money there?

    If you went to college in the US atleast remember dorms. No real usable space. Remember we all will need to work somehow on a seastead and grow some food or make some goods to sell.

    Maybe in the US the people are bigger, that’s the only possible explanation for why they need so much room, cause I see no other. I’ve seen obese people that are twice the size of a normal human, so maybe they require twice as much room to live in.

    Anyhow, so our kitchen in this apartment is also 15sqft or 4m^2, it’s enough for two people to make meals for themselves easily, has an oven, stove, refrigerator, toaster-oven, sink, and all our food.

    our bathroom is 3m^2. has a bathtub, toilet, sink, kitty-litter, mops, and a bunch of hygiene supplies.

    On a seastead, could easily manage with 1 bathroom/kitchen per 7 people,

    We could probably fit a shower-room in 2m^2 if thai-style (floor drains), likewise with kitchen.

    Food and clothes can be stored in bedroom, though extra rooms can also be used.

    Note that at Occupy people live in tents, which are around 2-4m^3.

    Anyways, so I’ve updated the phi-boat spreadsheet.

    For the average community, size 11 (19.8m * 12.1m * 7.7m) now fits 58 home rooms, revised cost $123,000, enough for a medium sized hamlet

    For a large community, the max I’d recommend to go for is size 18, (32.4m * 19.8m * 12.6m) at 255 home rooms, revised cost $325,000, enough for a small village.

    the minimum that can be used as a home, a size 3 ( 5.4m * 3.3m * 2.1m) is , fitting 1.18 home rooms, revised cost $4,460

    the minimum that can be used for a family (couple+kid), a size 4 (7.2m * 4.4m * 2.8m), fitting 2.8 home rooms, revised cost $9,832

    a medium sized family can use, a size 5, (9m x 5.5m x 3.5m), fitting 5.4 home-rooms, revised cost $18,000

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

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