1. Skip to navigation
  2. Skip to content
  3. Skip to sidebar




Observation about the OCR Constitution and suggestions

Home Forums Community General Chat Observation about the OCR Constitution and suggestions

This topic contains 44 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of wohl1917 wohl1917 3 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 45 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #14175
    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    when i was a teenager, my grandfather reniged on a full college fund that my late grandmother set aside for me at birth. i ended up doing 2 yrs trade school, 2 yrs community college, and finally 2 yrs at a university to earn a B.S… when i was a teenager i hung with the wrong crowd and lived in the moment. i never would have valued my education if it were “forced” upon me. i chose it, worked incredibly hard for it, and even after suffering through several boughts of unemployment have NEVER questioned the tremendous value of my degee.

    if theres one thing i can agree whith Wohlwend about – you got ta fuckin’ earn it to own it!

    Sickor wrote:

    Well I don’t think we should have this captain system in the first place, everyone should be allowed ot vote from the start. They would vote for what they feel is best.

    so back to my other question, then. how do u declare someone a citizen?

    thats a great question, i was looking at the U.S. requirements which are:

    1. Are at least 18 years old and a lawful permanent resident (“green card” holder);
    2. Have resided continuously in the United States, having been lawfully admitted for permanent residence, for five years immediately preceding the date you filed your application for naturalization, or
    3. Have, after having been removed from conditional permanent resident status, based upon your marriage to a U.S. citizen, having resided in the United States for one year after the date the condition was removed;
    4. Have resided continuously in the United States at all times after your application to the time and date of your admission for citizenship;
    5. Have, during all periods of time referred to above, been and still are a person of good moral character;
    6. Have no outstanding deportation or removal order and no pending deportation or removal proceeding;
    7. Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English;
    8. Have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government;
    9. Are attached to, and can support, the principles of the U.S. Constitution and can swear allegiance to the United States.

    Can we modify this/model off of it? Not really sure what the requirements should be but this is a start i guess….

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    [/quote]

    #14176
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i think people should buy their own citizenship. none of this automatic citizenship because u were born here BS. fuck that.

    think about all the cities in the world. in the past i used to think of different cities as having a different culture. San Francisco was known for free-spirited progressivism, New York was a business-town with a rock n roll undertone, Milwaukee, Detroit, Moscow, all the cities had their own identities. seasteads will be like that, for a long time. each one markedly different. even though you grew up in one, u have to choose which one u want to take part in as an adult and buy a spot there. i dont think anyine should be a citizen until they choose it for themselves.

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #14177
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    that was quite a flip-flop Sickor! It took you exactly 2 days, 22 hours and 30 minutes to go from:

    “I do like certain aspects of the constitution of course, such as the captain system.”

    to

    “Well I don’t think we should have this captain system in the first place, everyone should be allowed to vote from the start. They would vote for what they feel is best.”

    More eloquent proof of my point I couldn’t have asked for! People who have not assumed and accepted the responsibility of command make decisions based on what they ‘think’ or how they ‘feel’ or that they ‘believe’ about this or that being ‘best’. At sea, aboard vessels, ships and seastations, the people in charge will have to know. In real life there are no take-backs or do-overs. Citizen Captains and Subject Citizens know that the ocean itself is the final arbiter, judge, jury and executioner. If someone puts to sea and fails to meet the minimum standards set by the ocean, the ocean will not care what they think, feel or believe is best.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    wohl1917 wrote:

    that was quite a flip-flop Sickor! It took you exactly 2 days, 22 hours and 30 minutes to go from:

    “I do like certain aspects of the constitution of course, such as the captain system.”

    to

    “Well I don’t think we should have this captain system in the first place, everyone should be allowed to vote from the start. They would vote for what they feel is best.”

    More eloquent proof of my point I couldn’t have asked for! People who have not assumed and accepted the responsibility of command make decisions based on what they ‘think’ or how they ‘feel’ or that they ‘believe’ about this or that being ‘best’. At sea, aboard vessels, ships and seastations, the people in charge will have to know. In real life there are no take-backs or do-overs. Citizen Captains and Subject Citizens know that the ocean itself is the final arbiter, judge, jury and executioner. If someone puts to sea and fails to meet the minimum standards set by the ocean, the ocean will not care what they think, feel or believe is best.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Yes well as certain things have developed and as I have examined the constitution, I have changed my mind based off this new evidence and further examination. But the thing is, if people don’t want the responsibility, then they won’t move there. Like you have said each seastead may be different, for those who want a lifestyle that has less responsibility and less say in waht goes on (not neccesarily a bad thing), your OCR is perfect for them! For those who would rather have more responsibility but a bigger say in what goes on may go to another seastead! In reality it is what the people wants that will prevail.

    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    To answer it I will make a few basic assumptions and answer the question in different ways:

    The Captain is a Citizen Captain and his/her crew are Subjects of the Republic. In this case, they don’t have the right to vote but would be represented by their Captain.

    The Captain is not a Citizen Captain and neither are his/her crew: In this case, none of them would have the right to vote but would have equal protection under the Law in all regards save one: sentencing: The minimum sentence for such persons is Banishment for Life. (VI.1.11-11a)

    Now, if they wanted to be OCR Citizens it would be a simple matter of obtaining their Citizen Captain and Subject Certificates. There would be a nominal fee to cover the cost of materials and like all other Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and adult Subjects they would make the following Affirmation:“I __________________ do solemnly affirm, that I will support and defend the Constitution of the Oceanic Citizens Republic, bearing true faith and allegiance to the same, acknowledging the rights and duties contained therein.”

    Also, the part of your question Ocean about ‘OCR docks’ confused me a bit. The OCR exists in the hearts and minds of its people, the Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and Subjects. Where ever they are, the Republic exists also! That’s why the Constitution says that whereas the Republic exists on Vessels, Ships and Seastations each is the Sovereign Territory of the Republic and is entitled to all the rights, duties, responsibilities and privileges as such (I.2.3a). If the Captain is a Citizen Captain, his/her boat is the Republic!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Hello sickor, maybe a happy society is not a good society.

    #14181
    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    Hello sickor maybe a happy society is not a good society.

    #14188
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Wohl is right. Shreddy is also right by saying that people should buy their own citizenship. (on a seastead, that is). Let me elaborate. There is no “seastead citizenship” without a seastead (territory). Therefore, the seastead will have to be built. An online seasteading oriented micronation can solve both problems. If you want to become a citizen, you have to pay a naturalization fee. A big chunk of this fee will be considered as “down payment” towards the construction of the seastead. (basically “earning” your right to citizenship by paying for it). When a “critical mass” of X citizens is reached, the construction of the seastead begins, using the money collected. Meanwhile the citizens should figure out form of government, flag, Constitution, etc. When the seastead is completed, the citizens willing to move aboard should do so. At this point, everything is there. All they have to do now is to raise the flag. declare statehood and set sail.

    #14194
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    it is what the people want that will prevail. Hear, hear!

    Ocean, I feel like Cpt. Orr in “Catch 22″ when he asks Yossarian, ‘Why won’t you fly with me?’ C’me-on join the Republic!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of Dervogel707
    Dervogel707
    Participant

    I agree with Sikor’s idea of government.

    #14207
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    why don’t you put your idea of government to the test! In my opinion the government of a Seasteading Nation should reflect the reality of life at sea. Using the best sources available as models, I wrote the Constitution of the Oceanic Citizens Republic and announced it’s creation to the world on 20 Feb 07. Later, I found TSI and have been soft-selling my vision ever since. A while back, someone posted a link to < NationStates.net>. It’s a simulation game rather than a role playing, fantasy fighting game but never the less it’s pretty fun. There you will find “The Republic of Oceanic people”. It has been run according to the principles laid down in the Oceanic Citizens Republic’s (OCR’s) Constitution. Now, within the games structure, there are variables, questions and issues that wouldn’t occur in the real-world OCR but where possible, they were dealt with and/or answered within the game in keeping with concepts presented in the OCR’s Constitution. Check out the game and the Constitution. I stand ready to answer your questions about either. The result of the OCR’s Constitution in action on Nation States web site represents the kind of society I would choose to live in. The kind of society where the basic philosophy of citizenship is based on individual responsibility. The kind of society governed by the Rule of Law. In my assessment, the Republic of Oceanic People has done better than OK. If the Oceanic Citizens Republic does half as well the world will sail a path to our door!


    <
    http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    In general, I like the OCR micronation concept a lot, Wohl. But I think the key to real life implementation of OCR are the seastations (seasteads) you are talking about in your website. By the way, I do find it “pleasantly coincidental” that you sized them around 43,000.00 sq. ft, which is around 300’x150′. Way before reading your website I considered 200’x100′ to be the minimum size requirement for a seastead to “make it” offshore. Pretty close :)

    Without those seasteations, maybe set up as floating docking facilities for the boats to pull in to, implementation of OCR would be almost impossible, IMHO. I think OCR should be a physical destination for the cruising community (sail or power), a place were sailors will gather because they feel like home since they are surrounded by sailors, people like them. “Birds of feather flock together.” Also, I think that the seasteations you described should be set up as a business, (fishing outposts or tourist accomodations are the first to come to mind), thus making them more desirable destinations for the crusing sailors looking for employment and a way to further subsidize their lifestyle. Lets keep in mind that most of the sailors are “poor”,…They live on a budget, they ration it to sail from point A to point B and in 95% of the cases, point B is were they drop the hook close to shore and look for work on land, hang out there for few years, save more money, and then one day they set sail again for a new adventure.

    Also, without the seastations, what’s left as the only solution for the OCR’s physical implementation is rafting up. And that will be a hard sell, my friend, specially if planned for far offshore, where the sea and wind condition will put a lot of physical stress on the boats being rafted up….That’s a fact, based on hands on experience, I am not making it up :(

    Now, as we speak, I am putting the last touches on a micronation with the ultimate goals of forming a small seasteading community, raise capital and eventually build @ least a 200’x100′ seastead somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico, to start with. When up and running, this could be the ideal seastation you are talking about. Since the design it’s an open lagoon atoll shaped floating seastead, I will be looking @ around 300′ of protected docking space on the inside and another 200′ on the outside (the lee side) open for business that can easily accomodate 10-12 x 40′ LOA boats (power or sail). At $8/ft/month (about half off the price that any marina in Florida will charge nowadays for long term dockage) it will bring $ 4000/mo in revenues. Electric is extra revenue:). Overnight dockage (up to 1 week) at $1/ft/day (cheap) is extra revenue:). Booze, food, fuel, marine services and/or parts sales, provisions, girls, are extra revenue :). Selling the dock space alone will cover most of my monthly operation and maintenance overhead. Then, the “extras” will bring a minimum profit of $10,000.00/month (@ 30% occupancy). Not to mention that I will buy (and then resale) fish from any of those boats willing to make a buck fishing while there and that there will be @ least 20 rooms available for around $100/night.

    If OCR, when the time comes, can market and charge a fee for its citizenship setting it also as a “membership” with 20% off all prices on such seastead and send them my way, I will gladly pay OCR a hefty commission on any of its refferals that reached “my shores”. It will be a win win deal for OCR….

    Dig, brother Wohl, DIG,..:)

    #14275
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    You build it I’ll come on a ‘State Visit’.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    In the OCR, parents will teach their children and teach them well! Education is a weapon because knowledge is power. Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot knew this well. Immediately after taking power the teachers of the the old regime were executed or imprisoned and replaced with politically reliable party members. Through education, the minds of young people were molded to fit into the design of the Socialist Workers State. By teaching the children what they wanted them to know and not teaching the other things they hoped to create the New Communist Man/Woman. Read ‘1984’ by George Orwell.

    As for points 1, 2 and 3, I think we’re talking apples and oranges: I’ve already said that how an individual Citizen Captain runs his/her vessel (aka Single Family Seastead), ship or seastation (aka Multi-Family Seastead) is entirely their business! If they want to let people vote and have a say in how things are run on board, that’s their business. The purpose of the OCR’s Constitution is to promote and see to the maintenance of justice and provide universal protection for the individual human rights of the people establishing national unity among its Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and Subjects. As for ‘judging’ who can be a Citizen Captain, Subject Citizen or Subject that is the glory of the OCR! No ‘one’ judges whether anyone is or isn’t qualified. No one has too. They either meet the minimum standard specified in the Constitution or they don’t. Ultimately, the ocean itself is the final arbiter, judge, jury and executioner. If someone, anyone puts to sea and fails to meet the minimum standards set by the ocean…. The ocean doesn’t care what anyone feels, thinks or believes and is brutally fair in its judgements.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    A simple way to think about Corruption is to put it in mathematical terms: Political Corruption = Political Power + Money / Time. If you put this equation to any form of government you see that Corruption is the inevitable result. The US Government didn’t start out corrupt. In fact the Representative Democracy within a Republic created in the US Constitution set up by our Founding Fathers was so un-corrupt it took 60 years for the Civil War to break out even though the points of contention, the seeds of the conflict were enshrined in the document itself! It took that long because our nation then was under the Rule of Law. During the Civil War and after the Law Making Process was speeded up until finally 49 years later, the 17th Amendment was passed turning our Great Republic into a Degenerate Democracy. It is only the residue of our once Great Republic that has allowed us to last this long.

    In the OCR’s Constitution, the government doesn’t have the right to tax (VI.2.6), the president has line item veto power over bills passed (III.1.9), and laws to amend the constitution are even more difficult to pass (IV.1.3,IV.2.1,VI.4.4). As you can see there is no Money to speak of and very little Political Power to make the equation work. There is time, but nothing can be done about that. Sickor you mentioned that you liked the captain system but then go on to say you want ‘…EVERYONE…’ to have an equal vote. I think you misunderstand: under the OCR’s Constitution only Citizen Captains and Subject Citizens have the right to vote. Now, right here to avoid any misunderstanding, how an individual Citizen Captain runs his/her vessel (aka Single Family Seastead), ship or seastation (aka Multi-Family Seastead) is entirely their business! If they want to let people vote and have a say in how things are run on board, well, OK…. The purpose of the OCR’s Constitution is to promote and see to the maintenance of justice and provide universal protection for individual human rights of the people establishing national unity among its Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and Subjects. As for the Ministries, keep reading. They exist to to provide the President, the Senate, the National House of Representatives, the Regional Houses of Representatives and each other with information, legal and administrative assistance as required and to provide information, legal and administrative assistance to Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens, Subjects and others at large for a nominal fee for service rendered (III.2.4&6, VI.3.7). They are explicitly forbidden by the Constitution to legislate, make Laws or Regulations and certainly couldn’t enforce them if they did! As for the President having too much power… Keep reading! The President almost has no power at all under the OCR’s Constitution! Almost everything he does requires the approval of the Senate (III.1.3-4-5a-6&8, III.4.2-3, III.5.3). Please keep reading and thank you!!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.



Posted on at

Categories:

Written by

Blog/Newsletter

Donate