Observation about the OCR Constitution and suggestions
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wohl1917 1 year, 10 months ago.
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July 19, 2011 at 4:00 pm #14144
the whole thing except for two sentences:
1. “If we do what liberty90 wants, these seasteads will become corporate states.”
2. “I think the only way these seasteads will truly be recognised as an independent state will be to become mostly independent of other nations.”
I couldn’t follow your logic for the first one and I necessarily agree with the second, but I take issue with the rest.
July 19, 2011 at 4:31 pm #14145and I agree to a certain extent. But let’s keep in mind that we are talking about seasteading start up communities which will likely have a small population. To be realistic, if we will have 500 people living on a seastead 20 years from now, this project will be a success. Also, even without a “screening” proccess and not being elitist here, due to the nature of seasteading, it is very likely that the first seasteaders will be rational, inteligent, informed and knowledgeable people. If so, I think a referendum based legislative process will work pretty good for this 500 citizens.
Liberty90, I never said that a majority should decide about individual rights or property rights. Those rights should be specified in the constitution and shouldn’t be alienable. I am just talking about the legislative process here. It’s also hard to imagine that 500 people will immediately become hardcore socialists, lol. Still, due to the oceanic nature of seasteading some services like healthcare will work much better being “socialized” in order to keep costs low. Also, under customary maritime law, healthcare aboard a ship is more like a “right”, rather then a “privilege”. (healtcare is just one example here)
My point is that we shouldn’t worry to much now about what’s gonna happen when seasteads will have 5 million citizens, which will be long before we are gone (if so). They should be thankfull they have a seastead to start with and figure it out themselves! After all, if we’ll build it, we went through the headache of doing so, lol.
PS. Most constitutions are libertarian to start with. Unfortunately (and sadly), how they are applied in real life it’s a totally different story.
July 19, 2011 at 4:41 pm #14148wohl1917 wrote:
I would tend to disagree that ‘encouraging’ the Citizens Captains and Subject Citizens to educate their children, to preserve and develop culture, to preserve and maintain objects of historical interest or to protect the environment for its own intrinsic value is interventionism. The Republic doesn’t promote or establish systems or programs toward these ends, it simply ‘encourages’ the people to do them. Most responsible people recognize the need to do these things on their own and in any case but they don’t have to. As for private property, not only does the OCR’s Constitution guarantee the absolute right to it, it contains a veritable prenuptial agreement to protect it (VI.2.8-8a).
Sickor, what ‘government’ gives, ‘government’ can take away. Nothing of genuine value is ever given freely away with the exception of Gods Grace and that rain falls on the wicked as well as the righteous! In the Oceanic Citizens Republic the government can’t ‘give’ anyone the power to do much of anything that they don’t already poses. They have the right to reach out and take it: to pursue happiness as fast as the vessel will carry them and the devil take the hind most!
Ocean, at first read, my knee jerk reaction to liberty90 assertion that ‘Real democracy = socialism’ was the same as yours. But then I thought about it: historically, he’s right! Democracy does, indeed lead to Socialism be it International Socialism ie. Communism or National Socialism ie. Fascism, it’s still Socialism. Either that or Anarchy which is worse.
< http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>
Ok, one of my problems with this is that how are we supposed to survive as a nation without a proper education system?
Secondly, yes you are right, the government can take away what it gives, however, if like what I am hoping for, a government where EVERYONE votes, then why would they take away their own education system? The people will decide for themselves what stays and what goes.
“but qualify it by saying that it could ONLY work IF the voters were self-actualized, rational, intelligent people who were informed and knowledgeable of the issues they were deciding and fully understood what the results would/could be. Sadly, from my own personal experience, I KNOW that’s way too much to ask of people! The Founding Fathers knew that it was to much to ask which is why we have ‘…this mambo jumbo BS representative democracy’ here in the US. What’s more, it worked pretty well until the 17th Amendment passed.”
I can’t disagree with you anymore,
1. You, nor I, or ANYONE for that matter, can decide “IF the voters were self-actualized, rational, intelligent people who were informed and knowledgeable of the issues they were deciding and fully understood what the results would/could be.” you cannot speak for everyone, and the only reason many people are uninformed is because we have politicians who do it for us. if EVERYONE could vote then they would be more informed.
2. Who are you to judge if that is too much to ask of people? Not trying to be rude, but if the people want some mumbo jumbo BS representative democracy (i do agree with you on that) then let them. I do also agree the senate needs to be eliminated. However that is another topic.
3. The reasons the founding fathers did what they did was because the country was huge, how could everyone vote on everything? How could everyone get to the capital? they were on horse back!, also there is a much larger population than there would be on a seastead. Imagine the constiutional convention with the entire country in one city! impossible. THat is why republics such as the one im suggesting are perfect for small states, such as the seastead.
On a seastead everything is much closer together, allowing EVERYONE to take part in government.
July 19, 2011 at 5:21 pm #14149OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
PS. Most constitutions are libertarian to start with. Unfortunately (and sadly), how they are applied in real life it’s a totally different story.
Even Constitution of United States isn’t really libertarian. Congress can:
borrow money, regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies, coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures, establish Post Offices and Post Roads…And in other countries constitutions are very social-democratic…
In my country – Poland – in “constitution” we have guaranteed – for example – “rights” to “free” education, social security (sic), etc…And almost every article with normal, libertarian rights have also this: The freedoms specified in paras. 1 and 2 above may be subject to limitations specified by statute.
So, in reality they are worth literally nothing.
This is normal in Europe…
July 19, 2011 at 6:00 pm #14152In the end, IMHO, it’s all about small (skeleton like) government and fewer laws and regulation.
July 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm #14153I already seen words like these… In socialist manifestos…
Maybe you like economic and social freedom, but “zeitgeist” of OCR Constitution (and collectivist words like these above) may by interpreted in very dangerous ways…
I really hate every form of collectivism… This is greatest evil in the world…
OCR wrote:
Usury at rates above 10% per year are forbidden
lol. what it is ?
Why ?
Extremely anti-libertarian article…July 19, 2011 at 7:28 pm #14158wohl1917 wrote:
In the OCR, parents will teach their children and teach them well! Education is a weapon because knowledge is power. Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot knew this well. Immediately after taking power the teachers of the the old regime were executed or imprisoned and replaced with politically reliable party members. Through education, the minds of young people were molded to fit into the design of the Socialist Workers State. By teaching the children what they wanted them to know and not teaching the other things they hoped to create the New Communist Man/Woman. Read ’1984′ by George Orwell.
As for points 1, 2 and 3, I think we’re talking apples and oranges: I’ve already said that how an individual Citizen Captain runs his/her vessel (aka Single Family Seastead), ship or seastation (aka Multi-Family Seastead) is entirely their business! If they want to let people vote and have a say in how things are run on board, that’s their business. The purpose of the OCR’s Constitution is to promote and see to the maintenance of justice and provide universal protection for the individual human rights of the people establishing solidarity, fraternity, and national unity among its Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and Subjects. As for ‘judging’ who can be a Citizen Captain, Subject Citizen or Subject that is the glory of the OCR! No ‘one’ judges whether anyone is or isn’t qualified. No one has too. They either meet the minimum standard specified in the Constitution or they don’t. Ultimately, the ocean itself is the final arbiter, judge, jury and executioner. If someone, anyone puts to sea and fails to meet the minimum standards set by the ocean…. The ocean doesn’t care what anyone feels, thinks or believes and is brutally fair in its judgements.
< http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>
but you say your government, would “encourage” it, there are alot of lazy people on the planet who wouldn’t want to teach them anything. We need a national education system in my eyes, your not giving everyone an equal opportunity. You say they will “teach them and teach them well” but you can you guarentee that? And waht I meant by judging is that you were implying that people aren’t competent enough to run themselves, and thats why I said you nor I can judge that. But if you cannot guarentte a proper education where everyone has equal opportunitites than how do we stand against the rest of the world? Not very well by the looks of it. Of course the education here is filled with lies, but we can improve that, don’t just throw the idea out the window because it was corrupted before. I cannot stress enough that we need a proper educational system inorder tobeable to compete in todays world. I could not imagine raising a family somewhere where there isnt one.
July 19, 2011 at 7:58 pm #14159Well, in my country 22 years ago, we have public distribution of food. In the times of People’s Republic of Poland…
I don’t remember this (I’m 21), but I know that shortages are chronic…
July 19, 2011 at 8:58 pm #14160liberty90 wrote:
Sickor wrote:
If we resort to the private sector for food,
Well, in my country 22 years ago, we have public distribution of food. In the times of People’s Republic of Poland…
I don’t remember this (I’m 21), but I know that shortages are chronic…
[/quote]
sorry, my message came across wrong, I don’t mean like the government distributing the food, I mean that we should grow our own stuff. To try to be as independent as possible of other countries or private corporations.
July 19, 2011 at 9:56 pm #14162with as few laws, regulations, policies or procedures was what I tried to create in the OCR’s Constitution. I fully understand the threat of collectivism but at the same time, I recognize the threat of anarcho-capitalism as well. That’s why the OCR’s Constitution forbids lenders from charging more than 10% APR (annual percentage rate) interest on the money they lend. The chains of debt slavery are just as heavy as the chains of collectivist slavery! As for lazy and might I add worthless and weak people of the world who wouldn’t teach their children anything, chances are they are gonna’ be too worthless, lazy and weak to survive life at sea! Now, right here I want to say that I am not nearly the @$$ #*!^ you must think I am. I am not without compassion for the innocent nor am I heartless and cruel. We have an obligation to help those who need help but the poor in spirit will be with us always and there comes a time when you just have to cut ‘em lose! The OCR isn’t in the business of ‘competing’ with the rest of the world educationally or otherwise. The ‘competition’ is over, they lost and we will have won simply by sailing away…
July 19, 2011 at 10:19 pm #14163why limit the right to vote to only captain citizens and subject citizens? If a boat has 10 people crew, 1 captain and the rest of the crew, lets say all 18, single and non head of households, than according to the OCR Constitution they can’t vote since they don’t quality as subjetc citizens. Why outcast them? If the OCR (in my understanding) is a raft up of boats and if there are docks and other floating facilities as OCR territory (if any?) in between the boats, then the moment one non voting, non OCR citizen crew of one of the boats steps on the OCR docks (territory), they can be subject to laws and legislations that they had no say about. If this guys live there permanently, I say this situation is very unfair to them, IMHO.
Wouldn’t be better and fair to grant the whole crew of a boat OCR citizenship when they are on the OCR territory, allow the Captains to run their boats as they wish (as I think you said, in accordance to international maritime law) and retain command over their crews even when on OCR territory ?
July 20, 2011 at 2:12 pm #14169OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
why limit the right to vote to only captain citizens and subject citizens? If a boat has 10 people crew, 1 captain and the rest of the crew, lets say all 18, single and non head of households, than according to the OCR Constitution they can’t vote since they don’t quality as subjetc citizens. Why outcast them? If the OCR (in my understanding) is a raft up of boats and if there are docks and other floating facilities as OCR territory (if any?) in between the boats, then the moment one non voting, non OCR citizen crew of one of the boats steps on the OCR docks (territory), they can be subject to laws and legislations that they had no say about. If this guys live there permanently, I say this situation is very unfair to them, IMHO.
Wouldn’t be better and fair to grant the whole crew of a boat OCR citizenship when they are on the OCR territory, allow the Captains to run their boats as they wish (as I think you said, in accordance to international maritime law) and retain command over their crews even when on OCR territory ?
I concur, we need to expand the right of voting to all on the boat. Leaving one or only a few people in charge is not the way to go.
July 20, 2011 at 5:09 pm #14171to only captain citizens and subject citizens? Because Citizen Captains and Subject Citizens have earned the right to vote by stepping up and assuming moral and legal responsibility for themselves and others. As a Citizen Captain or Subject Citizen you will have the earned right to live YOUR life and run YOUR boat and/or family in any manner you so desire. No Citizen Captain or Subject Citizen is going to vote to take away or undermine the rights they’ve earned because they worked for and earned them. If you allow everyone to vote, wheather they have earned the right or not, what do you think they will vote for?
July 20, 2011 at 6:04 pm #14172wohl1917 wrote:
to only captain citizens and subject citizens? Because Citizen Captains and Subject Citizens have earned the right to vote by stepping up and assuming moral and legal responsibility for themselves and others. As a Citizen Captain or Subject Citizen you will have the earned right to live YOUR life and run YOUR boat and/or family in any manner you so desire. No Citizen Captain or Subject Citizen is going to vote to take away or undermine the rights they’ve earned because they worked for and earned them. If you allow everyone to vote, wheather they have earned the right or not, what do you think they will vote for?
< http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>
Well I don’t think we should have this captain system in the first place, everyone should be allowed ot vote from the start. They would vote for what they feel is best.
July 20, 2011 at 6:19 pm #14174when i was a teenager, my grandfather reniged on a full college fund that my late grandmother set aside for me at birth. i ended up doing 2 yrs trade school, 2 yrs community college, and finally 2 yrs at a university to earn a B.S… when i was a teenager i hung with the wrong crowd and lived in the moment. i never would have valued my education if it were “forced” upon me. i chose it, worked incredibly hard for it, and even after suffering through several boughts of unemployment have NEVER questioned the tremendous value of my degee.
if theres one thing i can agree whith Wohlwend about – you got ta fuckin’ earn it to own it!
Sickor wrote:
Well I don’t think we should have this captain system in the first place, everyone should be allowed ot vote from the start. They would vote for what they feel is best.
so back to my other question, then. how do u declare someone a citizen?
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