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Modular Island Design

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Modular Island Design

This topic contains 154 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Ken Sims Ken Sims 3 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 106 through 120 (of 155 total)
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  • #11907

    J.L Frusha, a sea-orbiter building project shares this inconvenient with many special ships, dril rigs, and similar structures – they do not fit well into the existing ship building and maintenance infrastructure including existing harbors which frequently do not have sufficiently deep access channels. A seastead with deep calm water spaces can be used as service station for afloat repair and building of that kind of structures and draw money from that service. This floating concrete jetty was specificly built to service submarines that share the same inconvenient.

    #11910
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    it seems so, it doesn’t neccesarely make it so. I am talking about the subject of standardization of the modules.

    Yes, Will, “As we see from this short interchange of opinions we can not even get a unified opinion what size a module should have.”, and yes, J.L. “Everyone has a different idea as to what to do.” All this seems to be so, because we are trying to sell seasteading for the masses, and in most of the cases, the “audience” is counterproductive. Why? As with most of the audiences we either have a lots of clapping or criticism or some degree of reception. But not much else in between. Not only that everyone has a different idea, but everyone seems to know very good what they don’t want but have no clue of what they want. This translates into a lots of opinions, most of them uneducated in terms of maritime knowlege in general, therefore of no value in most of the cases, and in general counterproductive to the efforts of a few “performers” here, who know what they are talking about based on a lifetime of experience in related fields.

    Our “sin” is that we are trying to “standardize” seasteading for the masses. But seasteading its not for “all” the masses,…Not everybody wants to live on an island in the middle of the ocean, actualy just very few. Most of the people have already signed out their freedoms in exchange for the so called “security” in their lives. Goverments worked hard towards that for centuries, and the process of brainwashing the masses (now an art form) is almost complete. That’s why it seems that the process of standardization is failing.

    Instead, we should concentrate on small group of people. The ones that still won’t compromise on their freedoms, the ones that love the ocean and their neighbour, the ones who while knowing what they dislike, have a solid clue of what to do about it….Anyway the first seasteads will be small, by any standard.

    Standardization works in small circles. And the case for the last statement is right here. Using concrete as construction material is “standardized” between a small group of us here. The incremental aproach, too. The modular aproached as well. The floating island concept, too. The need for a high degree of self sufficiency thru a pro-business aproach, too. Size of a module now,…how about just an aproximate figure for now. (since we haven’t determined the shape of a module yet, it seems fair).

    800 sq. ft < Module < 1500 sq. ft ?

    #11911
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    it seems so, it doesn’t neccesarely make it so. I am talking about the subject of standardization of the modules.

    Standardization works in small circles. And the case for the last statement is right here. Using concrete as construction material is “standardized” between a small group of us here. The incremental aproach, too. The modular aproached as well. The floating island concept, too. The need for a high degree of self sufficiency thru a pro-business aproach, too. Size of a module now,…how about just an aproximate figure for now. (since we haven’t determined the shape of a module yet, it seems fair).

    800 sq. ft < Module < 1500 sq. ft ?

    none of those would fit on a standard truck, or get lifted by a standard crane.

    at the top of this page I gave several realistic estimates.

    the smallest ones have a “floor-space” or more like bed-space, at 1.618m*2.618m of 4.23m^2 or 45ft^2

    the one enough for a single person with floor space at 3m*4m is 12m^2 of 130ft^2

    the largest that would fit on a truck is the 3 person one, at 26m^2 of floor space, or 283 ft^2

    My suggestion for the standard is the single person module.

    it only weight 12 tons, which is hard enough to lift,

    and wont be able to use just any old boat-crane.

    at 2 by 3 by 4 meters,

    gives 24 m^3 or 847ft^3 of living space,

    and 12m^2 or 130 ft^2 floorspace.

    with at estimated cost at $8,000 it is quite affordable.

    Also note that assuming you are floating above the water line,

    then you can use the top of your seastead for walking around on,

    so that could extend the floor-space to 24m^2 or 260ft^2

    the smaller “bed steads” at $1500 can be used as escape pods.

    for repairs, exploration or recreational vehicles.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11912

    elspru, have to agree on that there are probably a couple “module size sweetspots” among those:

    1)car transport size – crane free (represented by a cube model)

    2) Bed pot size (represented by the sleeping box below)

    3) Container size (represented by a standard mobil home)

    4) house size (represented by the concrete float coast guard base in ecuador with a 3 floor house on top)

    Each of those sizes has his own advantage/disadvantage spectum my favorite is the smallest one as you can always build the bigger modules assembling smaller modules – but not reverse – so the smaller the module the more flexible the concept.

    For example you can easyly raft up “car transport modules” to a container size platform…as you see me doing in the picture below.

    So you would have “sub modules” connected to a “living space unit” of room size – connected to a house – connected to….

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11915
    Profile photo of Ekras
    Ekras
    Participant

    A few things I think everyone here is missing:

    #1- Modularity is essential. However not everything needs to be modular. Seasteads can be made in any size the owner wishes. What needs to be modularlized are things like linking mechanics, topsoil depths (how much dirt you want on top of the concrete to make sure the ground is level from one seastead to the next), etc.

    #2- Seasteads need to be expandable. The very nature of an artifical island demands it. The biggest advantage we have is that we can start with something small and make it bigger over time – that means a small investment to get started, and if you become more succesful its cheap and easy to grow.

    #2- While there can be multiple kinds of “Blocks”, there needs to be a standard set. This way if I make a block, and you make a block they can be put together with no hassles. This will also ensure that there is never any “odd fits” when two seasteads are linked together.

    #3- Not all Seasteads need to be mobile. In fact, building permanant “core” islands is highly desirable.

    #4- The structures don’t need to be modular! Only the “ground” needs to be. You cover it with ~6 feet of soil. Any blocks designed to have a structure should be permanantly connected (sealed). Buildings could still be anchored to the cement blocks to ensure they dont go anywhere, and you could employ some traditional structural design as well. The nice thing about doing it this way is you can start with something basic like an existing mobile home, and eventually replace it with an actual house designed for seastead living.

    #11916
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Elspru, your estimates are far from being realistic. A structure 2x3x4 m weighting “only” 12 tons will have a 3 cm hull thickness if built from steel. Any other material will be less weight. Now, 3 cm steel hull is way overbuilt for such a small structure. Huge oil tankers have 3 cm steel hulls. For such a small structure you don’t need more then 1/4″=0.6 cm (even that is too much) of steel plate. You have 5 times more material that you need.

    The $8000 estimate you think it’s quite affordable for a bare hull 12’x9’=108 sq. ft. with NOTHING on it, can buy you a 34’x12’=408 sq.ft houseboat here in the US, right now, with everything on it. Galley with stove, full size fridge, sink, microwave, storage cabinets, furnished livingroom and bedroom, head with shower and bath tub, toilet, pressure water, water heater, holding tank, engine, water and fuel tanks, anchors, electronics, tv, and a second deck upstairs for entertaining. I can’t possibly see any “realism” in building your proposed module.

    Ekras, in general I agree with your points, other than the fact that we weren’t missing them (just tired of repeating them again and again:) and that on a personal note I disagree with your #3. I think all the seasteads should have a certain degree of mobility if free floating. Its all about safety. What if you break free from your mooring or drag or loose anchor in the middle of a storm? You will be dead in the water @ the mercy of the sea. NOT GOOD. A hurricane can easily push you 50nm in few hours, and if you are close to a lee shore you can end up on the rocks somewhere with loss of life and property. Even if far out @ sea, if you cannot control your seastead position and heave to, you will end up getting hit hard broadside and might capsize. All this risks, for saving few thousand dollars worth of propulsion?

    #11920
    Profile photo of Ekras
    Ekras
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    $8000 can buy you a 34’x12’=408 sq.ft houseboat here in the US, right now, with everything on it. Galley with stove, full size fridge, sink, microwave, storage cabinets, furnished livingroom and bedroom, head with shower and bath tub, toilet, pressure water, water heater, holding tank, engine, water and fuel tanks, anchors, electronics, tv, and a second deck upstairs for entertaining. I can’t possibly see any “realism” in building your proposed module.

    on a personal note I disagree with your #3. I think all the seasteads should have a certain degree of mobility if free floating. Its all about safety. What if you break free from your mooring or drag or loose anchor in the middle of a storm? You will be dead in the water @ the mercy of the sea. NOT GOOD. A hurricane can easily push you 50nm in few hours, and if you are close to a lee shore you can end up on the rocks somewhere with loss of life and property. Even if far out @ sea, if you cannot control your seastead position and heave to, you will end up getting hit hard broadside and might capsize. All this risks, for saving few thousand dollars worth of propulsion?

    Can you show me where to find a boat like that? I’ve been looking and couldn’t find anything close to that price.

    As for your issue with “#3″ – Some things are impracticacle to move. Imagine you got sick and went to the hospital only to find it had moved a few hundred miles away. The thought with this is that there are essential services people are going to need out there. By creating stationary “City Centers” you would be able to provide these to seasteaders, and remove the requirement of living near land. This would be something WAY down the line and not even worth thinking about at this point. I don’t know why I even brought it up.

    #11921
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    craigslist under “boats” and search “houseboat”. Also in the boatrader or @ yachtworld. On Ebay too there are sometimes good deals.

    #11935
    Profile photo of Ekras
    Ekras
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    craigslist under “boats” and search “houseboat”. Also in the boatrader or @ yachtworld. On Ebay too there are sometimes good deals.

    tried all those places….. even tried to look for online scrapyards….. the onlything around that price were a few TINY ones and even those were in bad shape.

    Something small is not sustainable in the long haul – 30 feet would be a bare minimum.

    #11936
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Ekras wrote:

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    craigslist under “boats” and search “houseboat”. Also in the boatrader or @ yachtworld. On Ebay too there are sometimes good deals.

    tried all those places….. even tried to look for online scrapyards….. the onlything around that price were a few TINY ones and even those were in bad shape.

    Something small is not sustainable in the long haul – 30 feet would be a bare minimum.

    [/quote]

    After casting lots of magic spells,

    I managed to get a 32ft concrete-boat on craigslist at $4000,

    it was used, weighed 10 tons and had a hole in the roof, and engine was broken,

    and there were lots of weather signs that it was too early to get it.

    decided to get some sailing lessons instead for now.

    Anyhow that is a used boat, and obviously used boats are cheaper than new ones.

    My other idea has been to get cheap used boats, and ferrosheath them,

    that way you have all the interior premade, as well as the long-lived nature of ferrocement,

    if the sheathing is properly reinforced and ballast tanks are installed it can even be semi-submersible.

    however the cost of the materials for making the ferrosheathed hull will still be in the same range.

    yes can get sand from the beach to reduce that price, or make the hull thinner … though if you make it thin, it wont be as safe, wont be able to go as deep.

    If we really want to make modular islands, we have to be able to stack modules, so they must be able to submerge, to get under the island.

    The pirates of the caribean used to get away since their boats were faster,

    now with speed-boats that’s not really an option,

    ours can get away since we can sink deeper.

    Indeed they might not know we are even there,

    which is far prefered in our initial stages.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11937
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant
    #11938
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    elspru wrote:

    Ekras wrote:

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    craigslist under “boats” and search “houseboat”. Also in the boatrader or @ yachtworld. On Ebay too there are sometimes good deals.

    tried all those places….. even tried to look for online scrapyards….. the onlything around that price were a few TINY ones and even those were in bad shape.

    Something small is not sustainable in the long haul – 30 feet would be a bare minimum.

    [/quote]

    After casting lots of magic spells,

    I managed to get a 32ft concrete-boat on craigslist at $4000,

    it was used, weighed 10 tons and had a hole in the roof, and engine was broken,

    and there were lots of weather signs that it was too early to get it.

    decided to get some sailing lessons instead for now.

    Anyhow that is a used boat, and obviously used boats are cheaper than new ones.

    My other idea has been to get cheap used boats, and ferrosheath them,

    that way you have all the interior premade, as well as the long-lived nature of ferrocement,

    if the sheathing is properly reinforced and ballast tanks are installed it can even be semi-submersible.

    however the cost of the materials for making the ferrosheathed hull will still be in the same range.

    yes can get sand from the beach to reduce that price, or make the hull thinner … though if you make it thin, it wont be as safe, wont be able to go as deep.

    If we really want to make modular islands, we have to be able to stack modules, so they must be able to submerge, to get under the island.

    The pirates of the caribean used to get away since their boats were faster,

    now with speed-boats that’s not really an option,

    ours can get away since we can sink deeper.

    Indeed they might not know we are even there,

    which is far prefered in our initial stages.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    [/quote]

    Don’t ferro-sheath aluminum. It will cause di-electric corrosion. So far, best idea for ferrocement is hot-dip galvanized, to prevent corrosion. Beach sand had to be washed, to remove salt, or the cement will eventually disolve, as well as causing corrosion. Also, keep from having any lead in the water with the boat, if it is ferrocement anywhere in the water. That also causes de-electric corrosion.

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11940
    Profile photo of Ekras
    Ekras
    Participant

    maybe cement is not such a good idea after all…. Cant make a boat out of something that corodes in salt….

    #11941
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    J.L. wrote:

    Don’t ferro-sheath aluminum. It will cause di-electric corrosion.

    well typically it’s fiberglass boats that are cheap since they leaky.

    do you mean it will corrode from interacting with the iron mesh?

    or that ferrocemented pure aluminum corrodes?

    So far, best idea for ferrocement is hot-dip galvanized, to prevent corrosion.

    galvinized with what? zinc or ..?

    Beach sand had to be washed, to remove salt, or the cement will eventually disolve, as well as causing corrosion.

    actually I’m at the great lakes, so it’s all freshwater sand.

    there are also limestone cliffs in remote areas of the lakes.

    Also, keep from having any lead in the water with the boat,

    if it is ferrocement anywhere in the water.

    That also causes de-electric corrosion.

    so is this a problem with the iron?

    perhaps we can use a non-magnetic metal.

    Ekras wrote:

    maybe cement is not such a good idea after all…. Cant make a boat out of something that corodes in salt….

    I think the problem with salt is just in the initial concrete mix.

    clearly some ferrocement boats have been in the water for many years just fine.

    we could investigate geopolymers to see if there is a mix that would work with salt.

    I hypothesize that the salt leeches out of the concrete, and leaves little pockets where it was.

    so maybe if it crystalized it could work, though it’s quite likely freshwater sand would give a tighter seal.

    I was reading on Wikipedia that salt is in it’s ionic form in water.

    since hypothesis is that salt crystals make pockets,

    so it’s possible that wet sand which lacks these crystals, is okay.

    though of course it’s best to do small-scale tests to make sure.

    #11942
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1972-NAUTALINE-34ft-97173703

    http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1969-SEAGOING-32-Houseboat-97106927

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1958/Drifter-10%27-X-42%27-2108193/Center-Hill-Lake/TN/United-States

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1973/Chris-Craft-Aqua-Home-2034179/Stillwater/MN/United-States

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1962/River-Queen-Houseboat-2101862/Stillwater/MN/United-States

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1969/Drifter-Houseboat-1888370/Willow-River/MN/United-States

    yes, but to make them stable anywhere in the ocean,

    they have to be submersible, thereby they still need sheathing.

    I like to laugh in the face of the mightiest waves and strongest storms.

    So for me the ship must also be able to withstand my love for the high-seas.

    I’m thinking of a room or seasteading bubble

    shoudl have to have enough room for 3 people,

    you, your partner and some children, or pets.

    so that’s about 60m^3,

    example 2.5 by 4 by 6 meters is 60 meters cubed,

    so that’s $19,800 or about $20,000,

    if 40kg of cement is $15 and mix is 2/5 cement

    then that’s about $10,000 or $9,378 for just the cement,

    though you could limestone cave-mine, powder, and furnace,

    or maybe use geopolymer clay with chalk.

    when child is grown, limited space motivates to get new home for child,

    in which they can have partner and child, continuing the reproductive lifecycle.

    based on Judaism children become adults at 12 (females batmitsva) or 13 (males barmitsva),

    so that’s a good time to get a new module, for them to start their own home.

    they might want to float nearby for a few years, getting all in order,

    but eventually they’ll become teenagers and naturally leave to be with their own kind.

    might come back to visit of course, but meh, you’re free.

    reproduction is how we get more host-bodies.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

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