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matrix seasteading raft up

Home Forums Research Engineering matrix seasteading raft up

This topic contains 22 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of rarbolay rarbolay 3 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 23 total)
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  • #1502

    emmettvm

    …lets approach it from the standpoint of what is most realistically going to attract positive attention to the cause of seasteading, which any of these early projects must focus on as a primary goal, aside from furthering the technologies and methods involved, of course.

    While I agree, Oceanopolis, that initial builds should focus on floating structures close to shore, if the goal is to further the cause of seasteading I must disagree that a traditional boat design of any type is the best way to approach this. By using a single moored barge/pontoon/houseboat as an independent structure you are doing little more than poving that actually living on a boat is possible, something which doesnt need anymore proving, and even less for the public perception of seasteading. By living on a boat, you are just being some people living on a boat, rather than forging ahead with the ideal of seasteading. Sure, it may seem rather a matter of semantics, but we are talking about public perception, which is hugely important to the success of seasteading.

    Only three things, in my humble opinion, will directly and positively impact the public perception of seasteading (such as it even exists at this point).

    The first would be a permenant community onboard a platform of some sort, whether it be an old oil rig or a *large* converted traditional vessel. This is obviously something which cannot be done immediately, as we are still lacking on a great deal of experience and methodology for the infrastructure of such a community, let alone problems in the governance of such a community (yes, we want to escape government, but anarchy as defined as a lack of government will not be a viable option for some time – those who believe otherwise have an unrealistic view of human nature). Besides, lets not even talk about costs for such an undertaking. That makes this a long-term goal, more than 10 years out, which proves that perment settlement of the sea is a viable option for normal people.

    The second option would be that which Oceanopolis is describing, a matrix of floating traditional vessels which can act independently when necessary but link into a floating network community. This would require less in the way of infrastructure and pre-existing governance agreements, and also less in the form of up-front investment. Instead, each individual or small group would supply their craft to the network, and would be able to break away from the group to get supplies as they needed. Still, to do so would require a still relative-to-right-now large group of people willing to commit their personal craft to such a community. This is more likely and more achievable in the shorter term than a single large structure, but still somewhat far off for us right now. I would consider this to be a mid-term goal, more than 5 years from now, but probably less than 10, and it would prove that a community of voluntarily cooporating individuals could live happily on the seas.

    The third option would be an amalgamation of the design that shredder7753 is proposing mixed with the practicality Oceanopolis has wisely learned through his nautical expericne. Drop the idea of building the first models outside of an EEZ, drop the idea of submersible or semi-submersible structures, and stick to a floating home which is within docile, protected waters of a bay or harbor of a nation near a major city. It cannot be a boat because it has to be viewed as an actual house. Be it what it may be, when people think of living anywhere, they think of living in a house. The best way to make them consider living at sea as a viable option is not to make them think that living on a boat is okay, but rather to show them that they can have a house at sea. Take a squashed cube, maybe 25′x25′ wide and long, and 20′ high, or maybe a cylinder of the same height with a 30′ diameter. Construct it with windows below and above the surface of the waterline, and moor it in sheltered water anywhere from 30′-100′ deep, but as close to the shore of a large-ish city as possible. Install wall paper and furniture. Get cable TV and internet. Give lots of tours. Let some journalists use it as a weekend party-house. This is supposed to be a working prototype and nothing more, so you needent worry about engineering a lifespan any longer than 3-5 years out of it, because by then the whole idea of seasteading will have moved on to newer models and grander projects, along with the entire public idea of seasteading. Something like this could be done pretty cheaply – not super cheap, but under 250k for sure, definitely not out of the range of the kinds of patrons seasteading has attracted to this point.

    Anything less, like a floating houseboat or barge with some people making it their semi-permenant home, and you are just going to be seen as some weirdos on a boat. Sorry to say it, but thats how most people will think.

    #13504
    Avatar of sda1950
    sda1950
    Participant

    ellmer

    I disagree with your assessment of Oceanopolis’s implimentation. Oceanopolis is trying to get this moving. The timeframe is 1 – 2 years I believe, and he is trying to make things affordable. Both great goals. The first version of a seastead coming in at $40K per unit, and he is currently working on reducing the price. These prices assume a $15K price tag for the boat, high, considering the price of boats today. I hope to be living on something like this early next year. A number of these units rafted together to make a floating hotel could show people they can make a living at seasteading. Adding telecommunication capabilities could provide housing for telecommuters for all the people sick of the Kalifornia socialist government.

    #13507

    matrix seastead…a come together of all kind of floating housing solutions from yachts to barges, platforms of all kind… supported by a infrastructure of floating breakwaters and walkways.

    The best way to make it happen : start building small scale modular platforms walkways in concrete. The smallest building site where you can handle that is a 5000 USD / month site with 2 workers and an output of 1 cube element per day = 1 squaremter floating real estate per day at a cost of USD 166/ day and a created real estate value of 2000 USD/day

    Start with a cube – connect cubes to platforms of any size and shape – keep growing as long as you can win customers and create a sustainable business…

    You can alternate the shapes of the base elements plate shape, triangular catamaran float shape, all comes down to a building cost of some 331 Euro/ ton of structure building.

    Have been there have tested it in pilot projects….

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #13511
    Avatar of Seasteader-
    Seasteader-
    Participant

    @sda

    Love the way you describe Arnies’s state. How about trying for governor and making the coast open to SSers?

    The first in the 6th row (50 times larger) looks like something cheap enough for most of us to tether to a Seamount for 20 years to grow a reef and mangrove from. No taxes, no nepotiusm, no oligarchy, no apartheid, no bad laws, no conscriptions, no chems, no Food acts, no big bro, no big govt., no unelected judges, no abuse of citizens no necessity of violent revolution – maybe a last try at candidacy to change the landstead though?

    Total Physical Freedom and Total Mental Autonomy, Tempered with Common Sense.

    Utopia – Capitalism with Socialist Caps on Personal Wealth – US$20 Million
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3666
    5503866

    #13533
    Avatar of Seasteader-
    Seasteader-
    Participant

    It has to be small, under 100′ LOA. (Subsistence considerations pls.. Too small?)
    It has to be modular. (Yes, thats the appeal of SSing, move away from noxious neighbours.)
    It has to be built of cement (ferro or other construction technique). (Yes)
    It has to be based on a floating platform design. (Yes, no submersibles.)
    It has to be a business. (Growing seafood mainly? Tourism at most. Though if it costs too much, the tourist could be invited to set up houseboats and platforms of their own instead, further increasing the Sovereign population.)
    It has to be esthetic in all of it’s design characteristics. (Dunno abt this, sounds costly, unless you refer to fur or fish skin Ugg Boots and floors or walls decorated with crabshell, then maybe.)
    It has to be located very close to shore, preferably on a solid hurricane mooring, to start with. (Not into red tape and land stead subjugation.)
    It has to retain a certain degree of mobility. (something that while not generally agreed upon, I will never change this pesonal oppinion) (Mobility increases cost, disallows mangroving)

    That’s why I can’t possibly built the living quarters for an additional $40k. (Watch Waterworld, doesn’t lok like anything needs 40K to build, rummage around at the scrapyard)

    So, as I said before, if anyone of you gentlemen believe the same and would like to participate financially or otherwise so we can speed up the timeline of this project and make it a reality sooner, my door is always open to you. (Here! Maybe a deep sea shellfish farm would be more practical for the SS/Sovereignty purposes than a MMK for tourism? But consider the non-EEZ thing pls.. Hate red tape and more govt. b.s..

    Also the temporary ‘sample’ thing @ellmer suggested will not endear. Some people who catch on later will look back and say it was torn down, as if the whole concept of SSing was torn down. Bad press again. Make things to last.

    Earth filled pontoons for agro too . . .

    ‘Sombody pinch me now.’ Ditto MANY times more, @Oceanopolis, any advice on that?

    Total Physical Freedom and Total Mental Autonomy, Tempered with Common Sense.

    Utopia – Capitalism with Socialist Caps on Personal Wealth – US$20 Million
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36665503866

    #13532
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    First, let me say that I am very glad to see that the group of people who AGREE (wow, somebody pinch me now :) on a certain “format” of design, size, functionality and location for a start-up seastead based on a low budget, is GROWING. I will not list the names of everybody who always participated at this forums, because we all know it. They are the “usual suspects” that faithfully have shown determination and perseverance towards the cause at hand and debated on the challanges that seasteading is presenting to us. While we still have differences, based on everybody’s comments so far, I think that most of us had come to agree on the following set of general accepted principles for a such a seastead start-up:

    1. It has to be small, under 100′ LOA.
    2. It has to be modular.
    3. It has to be built of cement (ferro or other construction technique).
    4. It has to be based on a floating platform design.
    5. It has to be a business.
    6. It has to be esthetic in all of it’s design characteristics.
    7. It has to be located very close to shore, preferablly on a solid hurricane mooring, to start with.
    8. It has to retain a certain degree of mobility. (something that while not generally agreed upon, I will never change this pesonal oppinion)

    Now, let me respond directly to some of the comments. I never said that it should be based on a boat. It was poor phrasing of my part, maybe. I did say, and I quote “Any barge/pontoon/houseboat type design, of any shape will do @ this point in time since we should be talking only about a small, experimental floating structure, moored closed to shore, to start with, and NOTHING else.” The key word was “type design”. It meant basically a floating platform built of ferrocement, a float that we can built on, that’s it. Which is in line with Shredder vision of a Bergstead. And by the way, there is no difference whatsoever (other than shape) between the kitefloat I am using for flotation and Shreddy’s bergstead. They are both displacement hulls:

    • Displacement hull
    the hull is supported exclusively or predominantly by buoyancy. They travel through the water at a limited rate which is defined by the waterline length. They are often heavier than planing types, though not always

    Now, it is true that the MMK (Man Made Key) project started as a raft up design of 4 houseboats, 1 in good shape meaning functional interior and a good running engine, and 3,…in floating condition, interior and engine didn’t matter. The rational @ the time was price,…cheap price for putting “something” on the water fast. While it was and still is true that using 4 x 35′ LOA houseboats raft up we can have a 80′ x 36′ floating “something” for around $25K, this design was scrapped long time ago. The first reason for me doing so was because of high maintenance overhead. It would have cost me @ least $10K/ year for the upkeep of this structure. Hauling out 4 houseboats for their annual bottom paint, pressure wash, blocking, sanding the bottom, 2 coats of bottom paint each, lay days, etc. The second reason was, as Wil and emm very well pointed out, the esthetic perception of such structure as being junky.

    But I will use a houseboats for the first MMK, and the ones to come, (if so, one day) as living quarters. And let me explain why. If we look at a 35′ houseboat in terms of size, we have a total of around 700 sq. ft. About 500 sq.ft of interior living and 200 sq.ft under the sun (forward, aft and upper decks). We can equate it to a small 1 bedroom apartament, with all the amenities of modern day living, for a price of $15K for such houseboat. There is no way I can built such accomodations, the equivalent of a 1 bedroom apartament plus propulsion for less then $40K. And I won’t do that,…I can’t, financially.

    MMK update.

    As I said previously, the MMK started as a 4 houseboat raft up structure. The design evolved, in order to cut overall cost, future maintenance and operation costs being a major concern in doing so. The design shown bellow it’s the final design, the one that I plan to built. The “float” (the MMK hull) is around 60′x30′ and will be built of ferrocement incapsulated marine plywood of 2″ total hull thickness. The hull will be therefore maintenance free in terms of requiring haul out and bottom paint for at least the time I will still be alive. I am 47 now. The houseboat will be 35′LOA x 12′ BEAM in good operation condition, engine, interior and all systems. The total price of the project will be no more then $40-45K. $15k for the houseboat and $25-30k for the float, since I will do the work myself. That’s why I can’t possibly built the living quarters for an additional $40k.

    http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x422/oceanopolis/?action=view&current=MMK1.jpg&newest=1

    In the first 2 years after starting to operate the MMK, I plan to use the profits to build 3 more MMKs and raft up all 4 of them. After 3 more years of running the 4 MMKs raft up as a business, I hope that I can save enough to be able to start dreaming about designing and planning to built of a 200′ module, offshore capable. This is where I am standing for now, since that’s the size of my wallet. I firmly belive that seasteading should be based on financial realities, on what somebody can achieve with how much cash they have in their pocket. If I have to do this by myself, I am well aware that it will take a long time, but I will do so, since I’m in for the long haul. I sincerelly belive that this is a worthwhile project.

    So, as I said before, if anyone of you gentlemen belive the same and would like to participate financially or otherwise so we can speed up the timeline of this project and make it a reality sooner, my door is always open to you.

    #13536
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    think we should adress subsistence considerations @ this point. Keep in mind that I was talking about small seasteading start-up platforms, really close to shore, I meant moored no further then a mile offshore. No need to worry about subsistence so close to shore and during such an early stage of seasteading, IMHO. The plan here is to test the feasibility of MARINE related businesses on a seastead, which basically are:

    • Tourism and recreation
    • Fishing and aquaculture
    • Alternative energy production at sea
    • Oceanography and marine related services
    • Endangered marine ecosystems protection and restoration

    We had a conversation sometime ago about food production @ sea and the general consensus was that agriculture @ sea won’t make business sense at all. While I belive, as well as others that seasteads should have a high degree of self-suficiency, that shouldn’t traslate in 100% growing our own food aboard, but rather generate enough income so we can afford to import most of our food, in bulk, at low prices, directly from the producers. Let me put it this way: if we have 10,000.00 sq.ft of seasteading space that we built for lets say, as little as $200k, should we fill it up with sod and plant corn on it, or built a 4 story, 60 rooms casino with 3 bars, 2 restaurants, 1 whorehouse and pack it high with tourists ready to spend their greenbacks? And if you’ll tell me that we shud plant corn, then you’d better move to Iowa, buy 10 acres of farm land and forget about seasteading, lol :)

    Fish farming, or growing seafood on a seastead? I do have reservations about that. What’s the point to do that while in the middle of the ocean when you can just fish for much cheaper and for a far better profit margin? Fish farming is labor intensive and has low profit margins, in general.

    Esthetics. I do have to agree that it’s a relative thing. Hey, beauty it’s in the eye of the beholder,…they say. However, for the MMK, since I want to sell it as a floating island resort, I thought it would be relevant. I have to have that WOW when people see it from afar and then they step on it. Palm trees with few hamocks inbetween, tropical plants, mangrove all around, a litlle sandy beach by the seawater pool, will create a nice tropical island atmosphere. If we extrapolate that to a 600′ LOA seastead, what would your first impression as a top dollar, first time tourist on such seastead should be: It looks like a cold, grey monolithic chunk of concrete reminicent of a 17th century penitenciary? or Wow, this is the promised paradise that you will be spending your 2 weeks honeymoon on for about $10k? So, I guess esthetics will matter, regardless how big or small of a seastead.

    If the start-up budget is higher then my lousy $40k, then I do like Wil’s “amalgamation” idea. For $250k built a “showroom” as Wil described, close to shore, and sell the hell out of the preconstruction models. There is plenty of cash sitting on the side nowadays, and people with that kind of money will buy, if done right. Eventually, it will grow and slowly move offshore in deeper water due to its size, mass and draft restrictions.

    Another idea that I think will work since it hasn’t been done yet is to bump that budget to $50-100 mil and build a floating waterpark resort 3 miles offshore, with all the rides and slides, hotel rooms, casino, bars, restaurants, nightclubs, diving trips, sportfishing, sailing, watersking, submarine rides, etc, all in one place @ the tips of your fingers. Just imagine a floating place like this http://www.rapidswaterpark.com/html/index.html

    #13551
    Avatar of Seasteader-
    Seasteader-
    Participant

    Fish farming, or growing seafood on a seastead? I do have reservations about that. What’s the point to do that while in the middle of the ocean when you can just fish for much cheaper and for a far better profit margin? Fish farming is labor intensive and has low profit margins, in general.

    1) Subsistance mainly. But sale at retail level without middlemen only. Someone has to brave the horrors of LSes.

    Let me put it this way: if we have 10,000.00 sq.ft of seasteading space that we built for lets say, as little as $200k, should we fill it up with sod and plant corn on it, or built a 4 story, 60 rooms casino with 3 bars, 2 restaurants, 1 whorehouse and pack it high with tourists ready to spend their greenbacks? And if you’ll tell me that we shud plant corn, then you’d better move to Iowa, buy 10 acres of farm land and forget about seasteading, lol :)

    2) The whole idea is to LEAVE LSes and their taxes and laws and b.s. constitutions behind. But if you ignore these above reasons or know a LS WITHOUT Feudal taxes, tell me about it. I want to livce there too and not build a SS.

    Wow, this is the promised paradise that you will be spending your 2 weeks honeymoon on for about $10k? So, I guess esthetics will matter, regardless how big or small of a seastead.

    3) You can rest assured that the Sovereign Territory with their HORDE of parasites and middlemen and even colluding retailers will make sure you will not make a single cent. Look up Class F Contractors – that my politically unaware friend is just the tip of the iceberd that makes ANY dealing with the LS impossible. Oh and people hardly get married anymore. They do slouch at home watching Idol and then swill beer then cycle to the food stamp/welfare centre for handouts, even if the have a degree. How old did you say you were again?

    In turn throw back whatever you think I am unaware of. with enough eyes looking onut in enough directions, we could pull this off without too much attrition by those lured by the promise of big society and the potential riches that can be made.

    Total Physical Freedom and Total Mental Autonomy, Tempered with Common Sense.

    Utopia – Capitalism with Socialist Caps on Personal Wealth – US$20 Million
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36665503866

    #13553
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    you say so,…

    #13554
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    I also think it is an error – and foolish – to think that any seastead platform of any kind will be able to be self sufficient in terms of the food supply, or any other factor, within half a century, let alone any of the early models. Insistence that it should be a priority shows at best a lack of understanding of basic economic incentives and market/trade benefits, and at worse complete ignorance of them.

    For seasteading to be a viable alternative to land-based living, those living in such an arrangement must be able to make the most out of their resources, to the point where they will have to out-perform their land based counterparts at specialization. With the negatives that early seasteaders will be facing – lesser infrastructure as compared to land based communities, difficulties with transportation as compared to land based communities, the learning curve associated with creating a new type of community as versus those established on land, negative perceptions of the communities on the basis of people perceiving them being less stable than land based communities, et cetera et cetera – they will need to focus on maximizing everything they have just to ensure the survival of their community, let alone to flourish.

    I cannot stress this enough: life for early seasteaders (talking about the first 25 years of real community) will be HARD. If you think we can realistically expect an easy lifestyle of any sort in the early years, than you had probably better wait till they are over, because quite the opposite should be expected.

    Yes, it will be imperative that people suppliment imports with growing their own food – window and roof-top gardens and the such – but why in the world would you want to devote expensive space to growing food when you can import it at such a cheaper rate. During these early years let seasteaders focus rather on their businesses and their learning of the lifestyle. To purporte that any community should isolate itself from the world simply because you dissaprove of the political methodology of other organizations is to promote dooming said community to hardship. If this is a point you wish to argue, I can bring to bear MOUNTAINS of data to support this, so if you do wish to argue this, please begin by presenting your own data as well.

    Also, keep in mind that this thread was started to talk about the manner in which the PUBLIC PERCEPTION of seasteading would best be served RIGHT NOW, not to assert that ’100,000′ people could be gathered into a floating community in ’2 weeks.’ That is as unrealistic as expecting the governments of the USA, England and France to reverse their attituedes towards debt spending and right supression in 2 weeks.

    #13558
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    That’s way incrementalism in terms of size and distance from shore should be a fundamental principle of seasteading IMHO. I think that if this principle is respected, self suficiency (but not in terms of growing most of your own food) will increase in time and hardship will be almost unperceivable, since there will be a smooth, gradual transition from a land based existance to a water based one. In my view, there should be stages of seasteading, the 1st one being very close to shore, moored less then 1 mile offshore, 15-20 residents, 120′-150′ LOA seastead. I won’t even go into stage 2 or 3 since how to get to this initial first stage it’s still an unsolved problem that seems to be our real challenge, for now.

    I think that we should focus only on the 1st stage, the learning how to walk stage if we realistically want to get anywhere. Trying at this point to figure out and solve the challanges of the 2nd or whatever stage of seasteading it’s like trying to predict the future,..useless.

    #14939
    Avatar of Zephyrheart
    Zephyrheart
    Participant

    We can’t expect to jump into this thing and have a full-fledged oceanic city in a couple years. This will take at least a few decades before anything closely resembling our pretty daydreams becomes reality. That said, there’s no reason not to work toward it to the best of our ability. I agree with Oceanopolis that it’ll take time and small steps.

    We need to work on perfecting our building methods, lowering costs, developing more efficient solutions and strategies, designing workable business models, creating a product to bring to market, and finding a social niche that allows us to fit into the global community in our own way without grabbing undesired attention. Most certainly, we can’t cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. To do that would be not only illogical from an economic standpoint, but dangerous from a social aspect as well. Not only would it likely make living much harder, but it would leave us alone when the wolves started to circle. We need a valid place in society. It’s ok to be different; just not so different that we’re looked at as cultists and dissidents, outlaws and eccentrics.

    Remember: While we may have different reasons for being involved, I believe we all agree on a main point – we want a better place to live in. The only way we can make a difference is to show them how it’s done right. We won’t be able to do that by hiding ourselves away and trying to make a secluded utopia.

    Let’s keep the energy up and keep on pushing for a better tomorrow!

    (Don’t you just love clichés?!)

    -Zeph

    #14940

    from what has been discussed since 2009 (when i started to listen the forums) i see it developing along at least 8 major axes…

    The catamaran float / The plate float out / The real estate squaremeter deal / The Captain Nemo float out / The bubble hotel / The current turbine / Breakwater lagoon marina / Oceanic port city design /

    I see that what we have closest to seasteading is the Quicksilver platform in Australia Agincourt Ribbon Reef

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #14951
    Avatar of Ellen-Re-Generate
    Ellen-Re-Generate
    Participant

    What, exacty, do you think “society” is going to do “when the wolves start circling”? Like the old saying goes, “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.” When you live in the middle of the ocean, even a responce time of minutes would be superhuman from those “societies” you think would come to your aid.

    Even in frontier America, the settlers might have been “British subjects” or “American citizens”, but they still had muskets aplenty for when the indians attacked and other purposes. Essentially, any workable seastead of any size from floating megalopolis to a single-family boat will have to do the same. There will have to be a “Second Amendment” with teeth. Essentially, anything goes. Handguns, submachineguns, bolt-action rifles, battle rifles, sniper rifles, gatling guns, RPGs, rocket launchers, UAVs/cruise missiles, large caliber, high cyclic rate, the whole armory would be permissible.

    I have a thorium reactor under the hood of my car. I get ∞ miles per gallon.

    #14961
    Avatar of Zephyrheart
    Zephyrheart
    Participant

    @Ellen – I almost hit the quote button, but then I realized that there is no part of your statement I disagree with. I’m not saying we should expect anyone else to defend us when things go sour, nor am I saying that we should expect everyone to love us and be our pals. I’m simply saying that if we turn our backs on the rest of the globe and try to hide away, we’ll be demonized, targeted, and destroyed. But if we have economic and political ties with other nations, it will be much harder (politically, not literally) for people to just walk in and wipe us out.

    Consider Isreal. The only reason that nation exists is because the US says it’ll back ‘em up in a fight. I’m not saying we want to be dependent on others, but having “big friends” tends to keep the bully from picking on you. Except when you’re walking home alone, but that’s a different topic.

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