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Jack-up rigs

Home Forums Research Engineering Jack-up rigs

This topic contains 33 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of wohl1917 wohl1917 3 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #15205
    Profile photo of defied
    defied
    Participant

    The Jack up rig discussion is for 100 people, the grand banks idea is for a family size. Comfort levels are up to the people livingin the situation. What are you going to do on a rig if you get hit by 40 foot high swells? I can tell you costs of inspection will be one of them, if not drydocking for repairs I’ve been on a jack up, and got nailed by a 40 footer. Trust me, no bueno. An able bodied seaman can inspect, and repair his own vessel as much as a car guy can take care of his 69SS. A rig is a whole ‘nother story.

    I’m not entirely sure how (or why) you are calling anyone out in an open discussion, but let’s try to keep it semi-professional. We are having a discussion about feasabilities. If you have backed information toinform us of something we are missing, please present it. Telling us we are so far from realistic doesn’t help the discussion. Heheh, in fact, being far from realistic will be kind of required in order to dream up an ideal affordable way to live on/in a seastead. 0]

    D

    #15231
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Shredder, I’m not sure if you realize, but there are many many places in the world where conditions at sea aren’t the same as what you’re experiencing in America. I.e. There are no 40′ waves 600km off the coast of Sumatra. Even in the worst storms. Try to keep in mind that this movement is GLOBAL, many of the best sites for seasteads are far from your country and that your disagreements usually arise when someone’s claims don’t match your experience in the US, which logically speaking, isn’t indicative of the rest of the planet. For that matter, it appears you have very little experience at sea as well, Why not take sailing lessons or buy a small powerboat to start with? You’ll need those skills/equipment eventually anyway.

    Anyway, back to the topic. There was a design by a member, Livefreeortry, that was basically a 20x40ft barge with retractable spars that could raise itself out of the water when bad weather came and then lower itself when you needed to move.

    Defied, do you know anything about the cost of maintaining anchors and their lines on offshore platforms?

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15234
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    u know, i already have my idea for what the best design is for a seastead. everything else is just basically 2nd rate competition. the Bergstead (TM) (Patent Pending) is the best that there’s ever been – hands down. anywhere in the world offshore the Bergstead has the greatest balance of safety, comfort, cost and facilities. i wont bother to interfere with discussions about other systems cuz i dont want to be a troll. so, carry on… sorry for interrupting.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15238
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    TM means nothing. Anybody can use that for a name. It stands for “trade mark”, and if it’s not registered and aproved as a registered trade mark with US Patent office, Trademark division so it can have an R on top of it,…it means nothing. Also, Patent Pending it’s a totally different thing than trademarking. It means that you have submitted a patent application with the USPTO and you are waiting for the outcome,…Did you? You can get some more infos here. http://www.uspto.gov/

    Back on the subject now. If the question is that jack-up rigs are suitable for seasteading, the answer is NO. They are nor designed for that. They are designed to drill @ 25,000-30,000 ft, and you will pay an arm and a leg for it just because of that. If they are cheap, it means that they are used and in most of the cases they will need replating,…another big expense. For that money (in the $ millions) Wil can build something at least twice as big in concrete, brand new with 0 (zero) maintenance costs overhead for the rest of our life. Why bother with steel structures?

    #15240
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    TM means nothing. Anybody can use that for a name. It stands for “trade mark”, and if it’s not registered and aproved as a registered trade mark with US Patent office, Trademark division so it can have an R on top of it,…it means nothing. Also, Patent Pending it’s a totally different thing than trademarking. It means that you have submitted a patent application with the USPTO and you are waiting for the outcome,…Did you? You can get some more infos here. http://www.uspto.gov/

    I think the usage of those terms was in jest on his part, Octavian. At least, mostly in jest.

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Back on the subject now. If the question is that jack-up rigs are suitable for seasteading, the answer is NO. They are nor designed for that. They are designed to drill @ 25,000-30,000 ft, and you will pay an arm and a leg for it just because of that. If they are cheap, it means that they are used and in most of the cases they will need replating,…another big expense. For that money (in the $ millions) Wil can build something at least twice as big in concrete, brand new with 0 (zero) maintenance costs overhead for the rest of our life. Why bother with steel structures?

    Agreed. These platforms are designed for a purpose which has high returns on investment, and thus where cost is not much of an issue. When you see platforms such as these where cost is low, the reason for this is that they can no longer perform as designed to the standards required – not the ideal platorm for a community, I would venture to say.

    -Emmett

    #15278
    Profile photo of defied
    defied
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    u know, i already have my idea for what the best design is for a seastead. everything else is just basically 2nd rate competition. the Bergstead (TM) (Patent Pending) is the best that there’s ever been – hands down. anywhere in the world offshore the Bergstead has the greatest balance of safety, comfort, cost and facilities. i wont bother to interfere with discussions about other systems cuz i dont want to be a troll. so, carry on… sorry for interrupting.

    Is this what you are talking about? http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/research/engineering/mini-bergstead-model-112-scale?page=1

    What do you have planned for damage control? I see you are at the very early stages of creation (as it kind of hosts the “big coffin waiting to happen” look to it).

    What is the total time to sink if something happens to the exterior structure?

    Do you have any plans in the works for double bulkheads? That would allow for some failure control, while also insulating the interior from the thermal sucking water. That way your concrete won’t sweat, and your compartments won’t become too cold to live in.

    What bilge systems are you thinking about incorporating?

    What are your sewage plans? I notice there are no holes in the bulkheads outside of portholes.

    What are your final costs estimations on building this thing?

    That definitely looks to have a good start to it. Keep up the good work!

    I think that the construction with re-enforcement is good, have you thought about mounting it to the sea floor (Like a jackup rig, but perhaps, on concrete towers, not hydraulically actuated legs)?

    I think from initial ideas, that’s potentially a better route to take then to pay a lot of money for a jack up.

    Well done!

    D

    #15277
    Profile photo of defied
    defied
    Participant

    xns wrote:

    Defied, do you know anything about the cost of maintaining anchors and their lines on offshore platforms?

    What exactly do you refer to? It depends on the structure, serviceability, and materials used.

    In short, for any kind of seasteading activity, you’re going to want some outfit to be able to inspect your station to ensure it is safe, and meets whatever requirements described for that locations standards.

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Back on the subject now. If the question is that jack-up rigs are suitable for seasteading, the answer is NO. They are nor designed for that. They are designed to drill @ 25,000-30,000 ft, and you will pay an arm and a leg for it just because of that. If they are cheap, it means that they are used and in most of the cases they will need replating,…another big expense. For that money (in the $ millions) Wil can build something at least twice as big in concrete, brand new with 0 (zero) maintenance costs overhead for the rest of our life. Why bother with steel structures?

    emmettvm wrote:

    Agreed. These platforms are designed for a purpose which has high returns on investment, and thus where cost is not much of an issue. When you see platforms such as these where cost is low, the reason for this is that they can no longer perform as designed to the standards required – not the ideal platorm for a community, I would venture to say.

    I couldn’t agree with you more. I do like the platform idea, however, as you would have less materials in the water, but also allow for a strong, stable platform.

    I think there needs to be discussion as to whether concrete is more beneficial over steel. I’d like to assume it is, but I’ve seen concrete fall apart pretty steadily over the years, and repairing steel can sometimes be easier, and more affordable than repairing concrete (Which a lot of times requires full rebuilds).

    #15288
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Lets put it this way, I have no experience anchoring anything larger than a 500 ton floating wooden platform. That was done with concrete blocks and HDPE rope.

    So if I had a 40,000,000 ton concrete barge, what would be the best/cheapest/lowest maintenance way to permanently anchor it when the sea floor is 5km down?

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15289
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    what is the total time to sink? that was a dead giveaway for “i made these bs questions up as i went along but tried to pass them off as being industry standard”.

    or was ur question: how long would it take to submerge to maximum depth? i dont know until the ballast system is engineered.

    u guys this is not a completed design, yet. when you build something complex that requires a lot of systems working together, you build each component so it can adequately ‘hand off’ to the next one. we dont have a clear picture yet.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15290
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Shredder, knowing how long it takes your structure to be completely submerged in the event of catastrophic faulure is a perfectly valid, and elementary marine engineering question. As well as knowing it’s natural orientation as it’s sinking.

    Many Structures are build for controlled failure, I.e. pre-planned weak-spots are incorporated into the design so it behaves the way you want it to when something goes wrong. Perhaps it’s time you took those sailing/boating classes I recommended, it might help further your understanding of some of the principles you’re exploring with your bergstead. Failing that, there are useful things you can learn from guides for “dummies” and “complete idiots” to constructuion and architechture.

    PS: The term you’re looking for is “Copyright”. I believe American and Singaporean law are similar in that the one first coining the phrase or prose owns the copyright, which in the case, of “Bergstead” is you.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #15291
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    how much time does it take to sink? ugh.

    if it springs a tiny leak due to faulty construction/ hasty contractor/ and piss poor QC, then hopefully it would take a “really really long time”.

    if it runs aground and gets a serious crack somewhere, its not gonna sink cuz its already on the seafloor.

    if it gets hit by an oil tanker at full clip cuz they didnt happen to notice the bright whight paint and the bigass red stripes then it could basically vanish without a trace in 0.5 seconds.

    thats still a dumb question.

    about the concrete leaching/ thermal leaching, concrete is always colder than ambient temperature. assuming ShredderSteaders will always be smart enough to moor themselves in a sub-tropical climate, they will have a year-over-year advantage over people who live, for example, on the East Coast of the US within a concrete block or standup concrete panel building. I think u would still insulate the same way as is normally done. Something called “hat track” is fastened to the concrete (vertically, 16″ O.C.), foam boards are placed between the hat track, and drywall is screwed to the hat track (i supervised at a dormitory that had this done on Dover AFB). its not rocket science – standard construction method. interior walls would be light guage steel framed, which is available with a coating applied to mitigate corrosion.

    my dad, my brother, and I all have boating licenses. sorry to burst ur little bubble thing.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15308
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “Lets put it this way, I have no experience anchoring anything larger than a 500 ton floating wooden platform. That was done with concrete blocks and HDPE rope.

    So if I had a 40,000,000 ton concrete barge, what would be the best/cheapest/lowest maintenance way to permanently anchor it when the sea floor is 5km down? “

    That will be almost imposible,….in 5km of water depth ?! In general, to hold anchor you need 7 to 1 ratio scope, were 1 is the depth of the water to be anchored in. So you need around 35 km?? of rode. Not any rode, but super heavy duty one to hold 40 mil tons,…Then you need an anchor in proportional size to the mass and inertia of such big structure, a VERY BIG one. Not only that, but you need @ least 300m-400m of chain, with huge, big ass chain links. In addition to that you need huge anchor winches to handle the whole process, that have to be custom build. I would estimate the whole “gig” @ around $50 Mil,….

    #15310
    Profile photo of defied
    defied
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    thats still a dumb question.

    about the concrete leaching/ thermal leaching, concrete is always colder than ambient temperature. assuming ShredderSteaders will always be smart enough to moor themselves in a sub-tropical climate, they will have a year-over-year advantage over people who live, for example, on the East Coast of the US within a concrete block or standup concrete panel building. I think u would still insulate the same way as is normally done.

    my dad, my brother, and I all have boating licenses. sorry to burst ur little bubble thing.

    1) No question is a dumb question. If there is a catastrophic flooding that can occur, one thing that would slow down that .5 seconds is by having engineering to prevent it from sinking that fast in that event, allowing for people to escape.

    2) Concrete is always colder than ambient? How is that? It’s a thermal mass. It would absorb the heat from a warm environment, and would radiate it to a cooler environment, until it equals ambient temp. Vice verse if it’s colder, and ambient warms up. It will eventually catch up if Ambient temp remained the same for long enough periods. Any heat the concrete contains from the surface atmoshpere will be quickly dissipated in to the cooler ocean (trying to balance out). Your concrete WILL sweat based off of the temp differences. This will hose insulation, add water to the interior of the structure which is never a good thing, and expand and contract the conrete causing stress to the material. Lizards don’t lay on black rocks to cool down.

    3) You have your boating license? What tonnage are you licensed for? You’re creating block shaped (90 deg angle) pressure hulls out of concrete with no re-enforcement, and you think that a .5 sinking rate in a catastrophic event is acceptable?

    I’m trying to be nice here, but if you want to keep smartassing peoples questions, you should take it elsewhere. I really appreciate the professionaly level of discussion we are trying to have.

    You are NOT being attacked. Everyone is trying to be nice, and ask fair, balanced questions to get you (as well as all of us) thinking. You’ve got good ideas, and we have questions, and concerns. Let’s all learn from it. Being defensive and guarded doesn’t help this cause at all.

    In a nutshell, you don’t know it all, and you’re not going to. Neither do we, or are we. But if we stop, watch, listen, and ask, we’ll know more than we did before we read this sentance.

    Thanks,

    D

    #15311
    Profile photo of defied
    defied
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    That will be almost imposible,….in 5km of water depth ?! In general, to hold anchor you need 7 to 1 ratio scope, were 1 is the depth of the water to be anchored in. So you need around 35 km?? of rode. Not any rode, but super heavy duty one to hold 40 mil tons,…Then you need an anchor in proportional size to the mass and inertia of such big structure, a VERY BIG one. Not only that, but you need @ least 300m-400m of chain, with huge, big ass chain links. In addition to that you need huge anchor winches to handle the whole process, that have to be custom build. I would estimate the whole “gig” @ around $50 Mil,….

    Agreed. If you want to hang out in 5KM of water, it would be cheaper using multipoint thrusters and GPS controls (Which is not cheap). Running line that long will be an initial investment, and maintaining the line will be a pain. There is industrial cable that is designed for this kind of use, however. I’ve seen it on TLP (Tension Line Platforms), but the deepest one I’ve been on is 4000fsw (1.2Km). That was a ridiculous amount of cabling.

    D

    #15312
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    you know that a mooring is different than anchoring. In all my searching I’ve yet to find a hard-fast rule on moorings as opposed to anchoring. As you say 7/1 IS considered to be ‘standard’. Most moorings I’ve seen seemed to be 1/7 if that… It has to do with the weight of the anchor but as I say, I haven’t found that spelled out on line yet…

    Defied, Anchoring would be cheaper by an order of magnitude over dynamic control of any type due to cost of maintaining alone!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

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