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Israel raids civilian flotilla in International Waters.

Home Forums Research Law and Politics Israel raids civilian flotilla in International Waters.

This topic contains 23 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Shouri Shouri 4 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 24 total)
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  • #1268
    Avatar of Gentry
    Gentry
    Participant

    If you checked the news today I’m sure you’ve noticed the headlines splashed around about the rather ill-fated raid on that Aid convoy heading towards Gaza.

    The attack took place in international waters, and resulted in around 16 dead civilians as they tried to resist the Israeli Commandos. This is not a thread about justification or condemning the raid, but I think its worth having a look at its implication for future Seastead crisis.

    The facts are that this was a purely civilian flotilla, comprised of multiple nationals in international waters. They were attempting to do something against the will of a terrestrial power, which then intercepted the ships with lethal force, again I’ll reiterate, was in international waters . But then again, Israel pays little heed to international laws.

    A little unnerving right? It shows the inability of a potential Seastead to resist a nation with force. The civilians were armed with sticks, so 16 of then were shot dead, If they were actively armed, then we would probably be looking at hundreds of deaths.

    Although what is reassuring is the widespread strong international condemnation that is being heaped upon Israel because of this

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10196351.stm

    It’s a catastrophic PR disaster.

    #10331
    Avatar of Gentry
    Gentry
    Participant

    http://www9.gazetevatan.com/israil-turk-bayrakli-yardim-gemisinde-olum-kustu/308396/1/Gundem

    There is a video of the whole event at the bottom of the page.

    #10333
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    The civilians were armed with sticks,…

    Well, there’s your problem…

    Also, it is probably good seastead policy to try to stay out of wars that have been going on for thousands of years.

    Or, put another way: When you get your seastead in the water, don’t do things that almost certainly will make somebody attack you (regardless if they are right or wrong).

    #10332
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    10 dead people,… its NOT “a PR disaster”. Its PIRACY.

    #10334
    Avatar of Terraformer
    Terraformer
    Participant

    Maybe they should have just let the Israelis see what they were carrying…

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.

    #10335
    Avatar of Gentry
    Gentry
    Participant

    I think you missed the point of the Aid Convoy, it’s purpose was the circumvent Israeli jurisdiction, and it’s blockade which is not internationally recognised as legal.

    Anyway it was checked by other 3rd parties and Governments, not the mention I’m pretty sure Mossad would have been keeping a close eye on it for years.

    #10337
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    Isreal inspects EVERYTHING going into Gaza, because when they don’t, soon enough rockets are screaming towards them. It’s a matter of self preservation. The intent of the flotilla wasn’t to send aid to Gaza; because, if so, there are ways to do that, but that means it must be checked by Isrealis. The intent of the flotilla was to skirt around those inspections and/or create an international incident, and one of those goals was successful.

    Israel has a right to defend itself from aggressors. Gazans have a right to live. Trouble ensues when those that care for neither set of rights get in the middle of things and push their own agendas.

    The whole thing is complicated, and no side is devoid of wrong-doing. The simple truth is, those with the most power make the rules. If you are not preceived as a threat, you will be left alone. The key to seasteading advancing in the very early stages is to fit into this latter category.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #10338
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Carl wrote:

    The civilians were armed with sticks,…

    Well, there’s your problem…

    THE NUMBER ONE RULE of the high seas is, “entities expempt from the protections the Geneva Conventions are expempt for GOOD reasons. If you meet one(or anyone else violating any of the other treeties on armed conflict) it’s Flight or Fight time. Get the hell away from them and NEVER TRUST YOUR LIFE TO THEM.”

    Carl wrote:
    Also, it is probably good seastead policy to try to stay out of wars that have been going on for thousands of years.

    The Jew-Palestine war is only fron early 1900′s when the UN desided to split the Palestine country-state into a Jewish and Arab nation-states.

    It’s a good idea to stay out of ANY wars.

    Carl wrote:
    Or, put another way: When you get your seastead in the water, don’t do things that almost certainly will make somebody attack you (regardless if they are right or wrong).

    I agree. But never think that by not prepearing for an attack you can prevent one.

    Every king Tāufaʻāhau that hears about your unprodected ocien worthy seastead is going to try to attack it.

    Your seastead needs to be prepared to take hits from Medium caliber deck gun.

    If you SeaStead is outside a Contiguous Zone you NEED a ‘warship’(For the purpose of this Convention, ‘warship’ means a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline.) It doesn’t matter if it’s unarmored and only armored is a flair gun. Even if they don’t recognize the “Right of Convoy” It makes it hard for them to claim your self defence was piracy.

    ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

    #10339
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Terraformer wrote:

    Maybe they should have just let the Israelis see what they were carrying…

    Maybe the Israelis should have just seen what they were carrying instead of blockading Gaza

    ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

    #10403
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    No offense but i think you guys’ way of looking at this incident is a bit shallow. (I am glad at least Thorizan understands the sitiuation a bit though…)

    Theory: MOSSAD received intelligence from an anonymous source that Turkish aid ship was smugling weaponry to Gaza. This intelligence was probably leaked by Turkey herself without revealing herself. This incident might seem like a simple diplomatic crisis but it changed Turkey’s and Israel’s diplomatic stance to each other. Turkey and Israel were always allies but with this incident Turkey harmed this alliance and got closer to Muslim populace dominant in mid-east. Turkey is trying to enter E.U. for years now and is rejected many times. E.U. isn’t the sole powerhouse in the world atm there are 3 main powerhouses in world which we all know i guess. Since Turkey was shown clearly that they are not wanted in E.U. they simply changed their goal of entering E.U. to entering another lobby. This lobby however isn’t quite pleased with Turkey befriending Israel and U.S. more than themselves so Turkey had to show where she stood. I believe this incident was an artifical crisis and its mastermind was current Turkish Government.

    The crew was probably ordered not to allow anyone inspect their load( its humanitarian aid afterall why not defend it with your life otherwise?) But there really wasn’t anything other than humanitarian aid but Israel thought otherwise since they believed their intelligence was concrete. And it is not like Israel soldiers shot ‘em first it was crew who hit soldiers first just to provoke them as they were ordered to do so(most probably) I watched all videos regarding the incident and i am Turkish myself but i still think Israel wouldn’t do such a stupid thing, this whole thing might sound like a complo theory to most of you, but my family includes some ex-politicans who could well forsee many moves of this government years beforehand and after some long debate we all concluded the same thing. (Note:It is not like i am against the current government or anything, my political opinions doesn’t sit well with any common political opinion in Turkey, so i don’t care who governs)

    This incident promoted hatred for Israel and Jewish poeple in a minor scale globally. I believe this was just a politacl game to effect Israel’s publicity negatively and to draw Turkey closer to Muslim Lobby. (though i still don’t understand how Israel ate such a bait, I always thought of them as exceptionally intelligent and capable people especially when it comes to strategy and gathering of intelligence, i would say they were aware of the trap but went through with it anyways with; ‘if they want to take us against themselves, so be it!’ mentality but that is illogical since they lost positive publicity cos of it)

    #10409
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Shouri wrote:

    The crew was probably ordered not to allow anyone inspect their load( its humanitarian aid afterall why not defend it with your life otherwise?) But there really wasn’t anything other than humanitarian aid but Israel thought otherwise since they believed their intelligence was concrete. And it is not like Israel soldiers shot ‘em first it was crew who hit soldiers first just to provoke them as they were ordered to do so(most probably)

    The crew of the ship had every right to repel boarders with force. It was a properly registered and flagged vessel in international waters. Since Israel has not declared war on Gaza then the blockade is illegal and they had no right to stop or interfere at all with the ship. The best they could do is ask the captain to show documents proving the vessel was properly registered.

    Now if Israel were to declare war on Gaza then it’s a different story. But since there is no official conflict or international sanctions then the boarding action was totally illegal according to international law.

    #10414
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    “Since Israel has not declared war on Gaza…”

    Gaza IS Israel, since 1967. Gaza doesn’t WANT to be Israel, hence the blockade.

    The ships were clearly heading towards an Israeli port, that was occupied by hostile, seperatist forces. The Israeli navy, in a policing action, intridicted. Blood was spilled. Humanitarian aide moved on to Gaza, and the non-Israeli citizens were deported… most not in a pine box.

    Big picture, Smith… big picture.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

    #10417
    Avatar of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    I didn’t say they don’t have the right to repel boarders… But we are talking about professional soldiers here come on, would you attack soldiers wielding assault rifles with a club in your hand? Don’t you think it is suspicious? When there is a strong entity threatening our very existence standing before us, we simply forget about our rights, he can put an end to our life within a few seconds at will, and our rights won’t mean anything to us after that point, no sane person would provoke a soldier with a club unless he is; trained and ordered to do so, ready to die/sacrifice himself for protecting his ideals or family which he values more than his life. I think you are too stuck in laws, nations don’t give a shit about it when it comes to confronting an entity dangerous for their national security.

    #10430
    Avatar of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Thorizan wrote:
    Gaza IS Israel, since 1967. Gaza doesn’t WANT to be Israel, hence the blockade.

    Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”

    Israel has claimed it is no longer occuping Gaza since the תוכנית ההתנתקות in 2005.

    #10436
    Avatar of Thorizan
    Thorizan
    Participant

    They are no longer occupying a piece of land that they still claim as theirs, correct. Any guesses as to why that is? Rockets and suicide bombers, perhaps.

    __________________________________________________
    There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.

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