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International tensions

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This topic contains 46 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Chad Chad 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 47 total)
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  • #22837
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    KatOnTri

    When i was born, Hawaii and Alaska were also occupied by the usa, neither was a state.

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, I was never implying the Philippines were the only thing US had occupied then, I just gave a couple of examples for every state I mentioned.

    You guys are discussing a government for a country when i bet half of you don’t own a boat, and cannot afford to go live on a seastead. I want to see two of you go out to sea and tie your boats together and agree on anything for a year.

    I don’t see a big conceptual difference between land and sea. For example, on land there are steppe countries and there are mountain countries, it’s like surface level seastead and underwater seastead.

    As for the international tensions on the seastead when you get there, as far as the elephants on this planet are concerned, if they cannot legislate you out of the way, and cannot buy you, then they will move in the military. Your international tensions won’t last long.

    The key is balancing between different sides. Give up a bit on the right, give up a bit on the left, and you continue to stay in the center gaining power.
    The Entente after WWI rather quickly ended intervention in Russia and let communists come to power, even though communists clearly stated their goal was destroying capitalists. A good example of a startup country that is really ugly, yet no one seriously tried to suppress it at the time of formation.

    #22838
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Kat,

    You shouldn’t bet on things that you don’t know about :)

    I was trained as merchant marine officer and navigated as one and I am also an accredited marine surveyor. I owned 12 sailboats and 4 powerboats. I have 12 years total sea time. I lived aboard for 10 years. I crossed the Mediterranean Sea 3 times from the Black Sea to the Gibraltar Strait, back and forth. I sailed 2 years in the Northern Sea (and yes, that was a bitch). I sailed from the Pamlico Sound NC all the way down to Dry Tortuga. I sailed from Ventura CA all the way down to Baja Mexico. I sailed around the Hawaiian Islands and crossed the Gulf of Mexico twice from Key West FL to Galveston TX.

    I do have a nice 25′ cabin cruiser that I take out 2-3 times a week (I live in Florida where the weather is nice all year long). When we go rafting up at the sandbar over the weekend with 7-8 other boats we agree and disagree on everything and we are having a blast. As a general rule, nobody will raft up with assholes or idiots.

    There is no reason why seasteading shouldn’t be be just the same.

    #22839
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Hi Ocean;
    .
    I sail some too. I have a Cal25. I do the same: 2 – 3 times a week. There is a little community on the
    dock. It is called D-dock. Similar mentality on D-dock. This year I will probably move to the East -coast USA.
    Could be Florida or South-Carolina. Job wise South-Carolina would be easier for me. My job interferes with my boating.
    .
    When I am there I would say ‘hi’. May be I will see you there.
    .
    For a warm up run Cartahena, Columbia sounds good. May be I could see the concrete submarine.

    #22840
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Hi Spark.

    Cal 25s are nice little boats. Is this is the one with a pop-top and a flush deck? I did bought one in San Diego, years ago, as a lien sale from a marina and flipped it for triple the money in one week. It wasn’t much as a dollar value, around $1600, but definitely the best ROI ever for me.

    Let me know when you move down here and wee’ll go for a beer. I will be selling (or trading up) my cabin cruiser for a 35′- 40′houseboat soon, anchor down by Key West and start a small ‘seasteading” like project there. Where do you live now?

    #22841
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Yes, Oceanopolus, i knew you have been on the water a lot, but you and i and Sparky aren’t half the people here, so i still win the bet! But your version of boating is way out of my price range.

    I’ve spent the last few months putting up walls around where i am grinding on steel plate for the next boat. The roof has been up, tossing up walls as noise abatement. Walls keep the sparks out of the woods too.

    #22842
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Kat,

    I am not a rich guy…My sailing in the Mediterranean & North Sea was done as working as a merchant mariner. The rest, after I moved here to US. I lived aboard and saved money (it’s somehow easy when you pay only $200/mo for the slip fee, instead of $1000 for a lousy 1 bedroom apt.) Then, I would take of sailing. After few years, sell the boat for a nice profit, move somewhere else buy a another sailboat, and repeat :).

    It’s not for everybody, but I liked (and I am missing) every minute of it…That’s why I am planning to get back on the water, but in a seasteading format. I just need to make a bit more money for that…

    #22843
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ancient,

    In general I agree with what you are saying. But if we have a referendum (direct democracy) system why would we need a “Senate”. Also, we have to be realistic here, and plan for the achievable, immediate future, meaning that if we can get 5-10 founders to invest and 50-60 seasteaders as total population on a 200′ seastead, we are SOLID.

    In this case, how much “political infrastructure” do we really need for that scenario? Mostly none, in my book. Just (as Ssteve said) a Constitution and some sort of Bill of Rights and we’re good to go. We shouldn’t waste to much time on the sociopolitical structure, I think. The focus should be on economy and how to make the seastead as self-sufficient as possible, meaning developing a diversified portfolio of seasteading related businesses aboard that can generate solid profits.

    #22844
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    OCEANOPOLIS

    In general I agree with what you are saying. But if we have a referendum (direct democracy) system why would we need a “Senate”.

    Senate is needed for country management because the founders are a limited number of persons.
    For example, the founders democratically decide who is the head of national militia. Then the elected person helps founders choose heads of district militia. After that, heads of militia choose between themselves what people lead local militia. Local militia head gathers the exact team to protect the citizens in a particular local place. There it is, the militia should now consist of great persons.
    If citizens somewhere think that the militia guys near them are abusing, then they can report it through online problem tracker for the local militia head, or for local administration head, who was chosen the similar way. If local heads ignore them, they can move to another locality or they can ask their neighbors to make district level online problem report. If the district ignores it, then they can move to another district or ask other districts to support national problem report.
    In this system maximum of problems is solved on corresponding levels. On local levels individual heads, militiamen etc can take action. On district level, 30% of district citizens make valid report, then 70% of district heads have to come to some sort of conclusion. The same is on national level. The result is that the founders can oversee the general questions of seastead development and not deal with micromanagement. But if the seastead gets big, then the national problems will be plentiful, so then there’s sense in creating Senate, so that the senators examine most national problems, and the founders will have time to contemplate top priority problems, general ideology, milestone judicial cases etc.


    Also, we have to be realistic here, and plan for the achievable, immediate future, meaning that if we can get 5-10 founders to invest and 50-60 seasteaders as total population on a 200′ seastead, we are SOLID.
    In this case, how much “political infrastructure” do we really need for that scenario? Mostly none, in my book. Just (as Ssteve said) a Constitution and some sort of Bill of Rights and we’re good to go. We shouldn’t waste to much time on the sociopolitical structure, I think.

    You misunderstand me, I don’t mean that we have to implement everything from the start. I’ve outlined the general structure of the development path the seastead can take. Everything should be done according to the situation, but some kind of design is needed so that everyone knows what the seastead is heading for and plans accordingly. For example, if the seastead continues to progress, then there inevitably will come the time when the founders have to delegate some authority to others (the Senate). It’s great if all the citizens know what to expect in the future and the entrepreneurs will really like it too. My design is also highly scalable, it works even for 50 people (no need to bring small dispute between two people to founders’ attention, if local head can sort it out).


    The focus should be on economy and how to make the seastead as self-sufficient as possible, meaning developing a diversified portfolio of seasteading related businesses aboard that can generate solid profits.

    I’d say it’s best to first jumpstart 2-3 major business directions with high potential, so that they start to bring in profits, workers, repute, and only when the scale begins to get relatively big, then it’s good to begin diversification. Because if 10 businesses are started at once, then it’ll be hard to work on them all.

    #22845
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ancient

    It still looks to me that you are retaining representative democracy “tools” as means of governance, while I am more inclined to start from the beginning on referendum based only…Anyway, this can be figured out later.

    But most importantly, I think the first step should be to focus on gathering the Founders. And to me, this thing can be done in two ways only: by proposing a non profit, or a for profit start up venture. Regardless of which format, money has to be invested by the Founders. Regardless of which, we will find ourselves in some sort of referendum based situation when it comes to relations between the Founders. If for profit, it will most likely be an LLC. LLC bylaws are based on unanimous vote between the partners (members). If not for profit, more or less the same.

    Also, without an initial comprehensive seasteading plan that can be implemented either for or not for profit, the founding process will turn into a lengthy mess… Since the founding process will boil down to investing money, each wannabe founder will try to push his/her agenda and self-represent his/her interest to the best of their ability.

    With other words, my question is WHERE and HOW to start turning this otherwise interesting conversations to reality. Because without that, whatever is said here, will be remembered just as an interesting conversation, nothing else. I leaned towards an online “seasteading” micronation that will present an initial comprehensive seasteading plan to any wannabe Founder and I have built 2 websites. One is up and running and presents the first project but I still have question marks about the project “format”, not or for peofit. The other one is still under construction, as the mother site (the micronation site), which outlines the whole concept, Constitution, Founders, short and long terms objectives, etc.

    So, my second question to all of you is: Assuming that any of you would one day consider participating in a seasteading project, INITIALLY, would you rather join a for profit or a not for profit related organization?

    #22846
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Hi Ocean;
    .
    A beer sounds good. I will pour, but I would drink diet coke, so I won’t burn your boat down.
    Cal25 has been very very good to me. And I am ready to graduate to whatever, (American)= the
    bigger, the better. I will probably buy it in Fla this year. I just have to sell my house first.
    Mostly I sail around Dana Point. I stay in the desert a lot: Palm Springs area. California, and
    God bless the sunshine!
    That is about the right prince for a Cal25 ($1600) or less. Mine came with a 10HP Honda outboard engine.
    It is rather a problem with the balance, but the outboard runs so well, I cannot get rid of it.
    I will sell it here, and I am planning to drive to Fla.
    .
    I think, I would go for a 50′ ferrocement monohull named the Bare Necessities.
    .
    I have not sailed catamarans much yet. May be it is time to learn.
    .
    Do you want to tell me about moorings around there?

    #22847
    Avatar of spark
    spark
    Participant

    Say Ocean! You figured me out:
    ” (it’s somehow easy when you pay only $200/mo for the slip fee, instead of $1000 for a lousy 1 bedroom apt.)”
    Anchoring is cheaper. There is a group of people who sail from harbor to harbor, here in Southern-California.
    Each harbor allows 5 days of free mooring per month, so 6 harbors are needed , and recycle them. -)

    #22848
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Spark,

    There are mooring here too, (I mean the ones that you can pay for), but not as many as in Southern California. Prices range from $50-80 to $100-300 per month, depending of location. The best bet here is to live on the hook, since you can anchor mostly anywhere. (just don’t drop in a navigation channel or on a coral head). The last one might land you in jail or thousands in tickets.

    Boating here is different than Southern California. First, it is really shallow around here, so you will have to get use to running aground often, if you don’t really know the local waters,…specially on the Inter-coastal Waterway. Summers are really hot and humid and there are hurricanes. I’ve been in 4 of them, and it ain’t no fun. If you live on a boat here in the summer time, you’d better be ready to sail away 200-300 nm pretty fast, N or S from where that coming hurricane is supposed to make landfall. I didn’t do that and Katrina messed up a fishing boat I had at the time, almost sunk it. Lost $5000 on that one since I had to sell it for nothing,…Oh well, live and learn. There is excellent fishing down here, from small catch to big game, marlin, sailfish, swordfish, and if you wanna be the next Forrest Gump, there is good shrimping, specially in the Gulf.

    Winters are really nice, low humidity, sort of like summers in Cali but without the morning gloom. Today was 82 degrees. There is a lot to do on the water here and places to sail to, Bahama, Cuba or further south to Central America. Down in the Keys there are nice coral reefs and cool places to visit and hang out. In fact, very few people even know that the reefs in the Florida Keys are the third largest in the World after the Grand Barrier Reef and the Belize Reef,..If you make to Key West, you’ll have a blast, you won’t even think you are in US…other than speaking English. All bars are open till 4:00 AM, everybody is laid back, friendly (and I am not talking about gay friendly,…just friendly :), they party a lot and there is a lots of money to be made if you work in restaurant, bars, boating or water sports related business. In general, they don’t pay to well around here compared to Cali or the West, with few cities being the exemption. (Florida is a right to work state, and a southern state)

    Overall, living down here is pretty nice.

    #22849
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    OCEANOPOLIS

    It still looks to me that you are retaining representative democracy “tools” as means of governance, while I am more inclined to start from the beginning on referendum based only…

    Well, yeah, I combine different elements. There are two reasons for this, first reason is that the sovereignty on the seastead belongs to the founders. Even if citizens come in their own private modules, they still willfully submit to founders’ sovereignty. So I don’t see why they must be allowed pure direct democracy. They can be allowed to do that, of course, if that’s more effective and brings more profit to founders. That’s my second point, in general I don’t think it’s more effective or free than a rule by a team of sovereignty owners.
    If there were people in general population of seastead who are as much free in their thoughts as founders, then those people would make their own country, not submit to someone else. If they submit, that means they are okay with that and they put their trust in founders. We all submit to someone, for example, we submit to those who made our computers, because we don’t care enough about crafting it personally. So general population also doesn’t care about politics or economic strategy, they just want to live good and maybe speak about those issues like they speak on Win vs Mac, without overly details, just to have entertainment or show individuality.


    So, my second question to all of you is: Assuming that any of you would one day consider participating in a seasteading project, INITIALLY, would you rather join a for profit or a not for profit related organization?

    I would definitely like to join non-profit, because it benefits everyone, including founders. It draws in other non-profit citizens, so that the result is like Internet, where many things are free and where a lot of people care about the specific goal, not simply about making money off someone stupid.


    Since the founding process will boil down to investing money

    Time has also to be invested, and time is even more expensive than money, in my opinion. Because one can earn money, but human lifetime is limited.


    But most importantly, I think the first step should be to focus on gathering the Founders.
    without an initial comprehensive seasteading plan that can be implemented either for or not for profit, the founding process will turn into a lengthy mess
    my question is WHERE and HOW to start turning this otherwise interesting conversations to reality.
    I leaned towards an online “seasteading” micronation that will present an initial comprehensive seasteading plan to any wannabe Founder

    I’m ready to discuss specific first stage plan. If you want to do that on your micronation site, I’ve no objections to that.

    #22855
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Time and tide waits for no man. http://www.themanmadekey.org/

    #22858
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Time and tide waits for no man. http://www.themanmadekey.org/

    But I can’t find the place for discussion there…

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