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Independence problems?

Home Forums Community IRL GTGs Independence problems?

This topic contains 17 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Jack Jack 4 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 18 total)
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  • #1135
    Profile photo of guest
    guest
    Participant

    When we do make a massive seastead in international waters and declare it independent, what are the odds of a “land” nation recognizing our new land? For example taiwan says it is independent but many nations still do not recognize it. Another example is Sealand.

    #9001
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    The short answer is ‘They’ won’t and will sail out and subjugate us the moment ‘they’ think we are worth their trouble. This has been discussed on a number of threads here but I’m not on my computer so I can’t tell you which ones right now. Sealand however does or did have nominal recognition by several countries though…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of JeffM
    JeffM
    Participant

    Well, there are two ways of interpreting and dealing with this problem.

    1. Be nice, useful, and generally avoid becoming an annoyance for any countries, and I don’t see why they would really care if seasteads sought to be independant.

    2. Declare yourself, maintain an international presence, but don’t hold your breath for recognition. If they all turned up their noses anyway and didn’t release any definitive, positive responses, would it stop us from living independantly anyway? Seasteads would be much larger, more organized efforts by relatively large amounts of people, and not just some guy and his family on an old military platform.

    Just build up, maintain your independance, maybe make contact with governments and officials every now and then on the question of seastead independance. Seasteads wouldn’t be a threat, and I’m fairly sure that whether or not seasteads were recognized, they would still be protected by international law anyway, so the prospect of the US navy swooping in and killing/displacing seasteaders and commandeering their homes is nil. Mainly because seasteads wouldn’t have anything of incredible value (at first), and they’re nothing the US wouldn’t be able to build themselves (when you compare them to things like the Ford supercarrier they’re constructing).

    Honestly, I think the US would actually recognize seasteads. If a security council nation (i.e dictator of the UN) recognizes you, there is nothing anyone can really do about it.

    In regards to Taiwan, a lot of countries just want to avoid stepping on China’s toes (veto power in the UN is a powerful thing, even if undemocratic and out of place), so there are conflicts of interests in that department, so the question goes beyond whether or not it is or deserves to be recognized as a nation independant of China.

    None of these complications would exist for seasteads (or at least they wouldn’t be nearly as ‘complicated’), as there would be no disputes over territory or anything like that. Seasteads would have to be on guard though… otherwise we might have people trying to make us the new scientologist navy or some garbage like that. Thats for a different discussion though.

    #9511
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Once you have economic size and military sway, people will recognize you.

    #9515
    Profile photo of Gentry
    Gentry
    Participant

    Herman wrote:

    Once you have economic size and military sway, people will recognize you.

    We’re always going to be inferior, economically and militarily to terrestrial states. At least in our life times.

    We’re trading security for freedom remember?

    #9742
    Profile photo of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    When we do make a massive seastead in international waters and declare it independent, what are the odds of a “land” nation recognizing our new land? For example taiwan says it is independent but many nations still do not recognize it. Another example is Sealand.

    Depends on what you mean by recognize. If all you want is the recognizion the Sealand got. (That it isn’t under the jurisdiction of any other state. and that you are a organization of some sort.) it won’t to be hard. if you want to be rocognized as a country. it’ll take till the fall of the United Nations. They have a treaty that says only natural land counts as territory(one of the 3 requirements of being a country.) The best you’ll be able to do without annexing some other’s nation-state’s land is a being recognized as sovereign nation like the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.

    Which basicaly take being rocognized as not being under anyone else juricdiction and being have recognized passport .

    Note that their is noting restricting the issuing of passports to nation-states, or that a a recongized state’s passport has to be excepted. Tonga is a widely recognized nations and they have had their passports rejected. all a passport is a a document that organization X have variated that person Y is real person Y.

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐστι, ἓν πάντα εἶναι.

    #9743
    Profile photo of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    JLGARTIFICIALISLANDS wrote:
    For example taiwan says it is independent but many nations still do not recognize it.

    “Still don’t recognize” Taiwan? Taiwan as founding member of the Unitied Nations. Many nations not longer recognize The Republic of China

    Οὐκ ἐμεῦ ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογέειν σοφόν ἐστι, ἓν πάντα εἶναι.

    #9902
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    wohl1917 wrote:

    The short answer is ‘They’ won’t and will sail out and subjugate us the moment ‘they’ think we are worth their trouble. This has been discussed on a number of threads here but I’m not on my computer so I can’t tell you which ones right now. Sealand however does or did have nominal recognition by several countries though…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    So they say.

    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Would anybody care about someboby’s else “recognition” ? If someone is free, that’s it,….

    Who are “they” Wohl? And why would “they” sail and subjugate “us”? And by “us”, you meant who? A hypothetical seasteading society that exist in cyberspace only for now? Worth their trouble? Even if a seastead is build big enough for 2000 people I cannot imagine a good reason for “them” (whoever or whatever they are) to come and get it,…Also, I cannot imagine 2000 seasteaders who are ALREADY on a seastead NOT TO PUT UP A GOOD FIGHT.

    #9910
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    Ocean, supposing for a moment that you, me or anyone else actually built a seasteading community on the high seas, outside anyone’s EEZ and became ‘successful’ as such things are measured. What would ‘they’ and ‘them’, the nearest macro-nation/state do? I believe that so long as we didn’t make ourselves a nuisance, so long as this hypothetical community didn’t take away too much revenue in lost taxes, or ever call for help in a storm, fire or other disaster causing them to come out and deal with us, they wouldn’t! The axiom here is “FOLLOW THE MONEY!” If ‘they’ figure that we’re eating into ‘their’ potential tax revenue or services, they’ll have an FFG out there as fast as it’s gas turbine can get it there then they will find or manufacture an excuse to try and board us, and that will be that. At that point, if we had the ability to resist and I don’t mean ‘fight’ (the multi-million dollar weapons and weapons systems required to engage in modern surface warfare can’t be purchased even if we had the money, the fantasies of some of the folks on here not with standing) we could convince the Captain of that ship that it might not be a good idea to force the issue at that time. This scenario is contingent on a population of 2000 you’ve suggested. Any number fewer than a 1000, the US government for instance would, and has risked killing and/or caused to be killed and they’ve done it over far less than money. I’m not going to give examples ’cause I don’t want to even open that can ‘o worms but suffice it to say we would be demonized in the press as ‘fanatics’ accused of anything ‘they’ and ‘them’ think the ocean will cover up when we sink! Such a mega-structure would/will be years down the road and years in the making in any case. Until then, as I (and you for that matter Ocean) have suggested, we have to start small. How is your Man Made Key coming?

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    that if we build it we will be scrutinized. But if we keep a low profile and if we operate our seastead deep inside the South Pacific or the Indian Ocean I dont think we will have a problem….The MMK is on hold for now, Wohl. One thing I wont do, is build a seastead without a crew.

    I belive that seasteading is different than the shipping industry. They to build their ship first, and than crew them. We should do the complete opposite, by gathering the crew first, and then build the seastead, since seasteading its much, much more than a “business”.

    Thats why, lately, I have been thinking that creating a seasteading micronation will be a good idea to start developing the social and political aspects of seasteading (with other words, forming a “CREW” for the first seastead). Maybe we can talk more about it and share some ideas, since you already have the Oceanic Citizen Republic.

    I have also been working on a Sailstead design. Its an old project of mine that I brought back to life. It incorporates using flexible solar panels rigged as sails on a seastead, in order to save money when navigating, producing alternative energy and achive a higher degree of self sufficiency. I will post soon.

    #9941
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    is the real reason why TSI exists in my view. Flexible solar panels rigged as sails on a seastead is a great idea but you’re way ahead of your time I think! The current technology would put too much weight aloft: even the light weight flexible panels I’ve seen on-line (not in person) don’t look ‘flexible’ enough to be ‘sails’. Perhaps if you used a standing-lug rig like a Junk…

    On a side note: I can only respond once a week (or less). Sorry for the delay and/or inconvenience…

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    coexist in the same duality that we all do while still alive….

    I dont no the REAL reason why TSI is here. But the fact that that we can have this conversation, and YES, communicate and share ideas on the seasteading subject on a website that TSI has provided is priceless, indeed.

    Now, I love the way you put the Solar Sailstead idea “way ahead of its time”. I took it as a compliment.

    I do remember a time,…I think it was around 2003-4, when “seasteading” was not even a word,…

    What I am saying here is that “ahead” or not its relative to ones understading of the notion of time.

    NO, it wont put too much weight aloft, because the mast will be much shorter than of a conventional sailboat, and YES the flexible solar panels will make a good “sail”. I do understand the skepticism…since.is nouveau. As I said, I will post soon.

    #10009
    Profile photo of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant
    wohl1917 wrote:

    is the real reason why TSI exists in my view. Flexible solar panels rigged as sails on a seastead is a great idea but you’re way ahead of your time I think!

    Old style Floppy sails aren’t a good form of propulsion. They are just cheap and easy to make. And everyone is already using them.

    Why not use traditional solar panel wing sails?

    ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

    #10011
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    weight. I agree with you that the wing sails of various designs are the future in sailing, but they are not cheap. The trouble with making wing sails out of solar panels is weight aloft. The weight aloft problem is very real with some of the designs I’ve seen and adding the weight of solar panels would make a bad situation worse. Unless and until solar cell technology has progressed to the point that a flexible cell can be made that is as light and flexible as the material that ‘old style floppy sails’ or even the the better designed wing sails are made of, I don’t see it working. With the technology we have now I think it could be made to work in a standing-lug junk type rig which incidentally uses short masts like Ocean is suggesting.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

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