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Hadean: Issues that need resolving.

Home Forums Community General Chat Hadean: Issues that need resolving.

This topic contains 19 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 3 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 20 total)
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  • #1481
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant
    After spending more than a year on actively trying to run this as a business, I’ve identified some key problems that prevent us from taking seasteading beyond testing small platforms within 1km of shore and 20m of water.
    1) Need Transportation Vessel capable of laying 120km of mooring line, carrying a 40ft container and a 20 man crew. In fact it seems the real cost of seasteads isn’t so much their material cost, but transport.
    2) Adapt aquaculture model for open-ocean farming, most of our sites are 400km from the nearest land, so that makes us significantly less attractive unless we
    a) Bring the fish to market ourselves.
    b) Maintain a Seafood Distribution subsidiary in an existing macro-nation that will allow us to make use of existing trade networks without risking political/legal issues.
    c) Set the price well below the current indonesian export rate and sell to trawlers who can then market our produce as “wild caught”, thus selling them at a prmium. Possibly illegal. No concrete answers from local government.
    3) Capital, once again, it seems the estimated cost of this project is well into the 7,000,000 – 15,000,000 range. And a large majority of it is going into the automated anchors and their installation. Unless we find a cheaper solution, we’re severely hampered.
    Any thoughts or suggestions?
    #13174
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It’s been a while.:). Without knowing too much about your planned operation it will be hard for someone to give you decent suggestions. Still, in general, the answer lays hidden inside the question. Why would you go so far offshore, 400 km? That seems to be your main problem…

    #13176
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    I’m aiming for a nice spot outside an existing EEZ. We have an alternative location in the Gulf of Thailand where we’d be a mere 50km from shore, but that would still put us in Malaysia’s EEZ.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #13180

    xns, welcome back – can you throw a few numbers and experiences in to pep up this discussion? Oil gas is calculating mooring cost at 20% of platform cost – for seasteads there are less stringent requirements i would calculate about 10% of platform cost for a suitable tendon anchor in deep sea. A 7-15 million USD startup ? – feasible finance plan? – still not seen feasibility for a 100.000 USD float out startup…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #13186
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    xns wrote:
    After spending more than a year on actively trying to run this as a business, I’ve identified some key problems that prevent us from taking seasteading beyond testing small platforms within 1km of shore and 20m of water.
    1) Need Transportation Vessel capable of laying 120km of mooring line, carrying a 40ft container and a 20 man crew. In fact it seems the real cost of seasteads isn’t so much their material cost, but transport.
    That’s precisely why my modules are actual sailboats, they can transport themselves.
    also they are for floating about, mooring optional,
    just gotta put up the sails again if you drift too close to shore.
    2) Adapt aquaculture model for open-ocean farming, most of our sites are 400km from the nearest land, so that makes us significantly less attractive unless we
    a) Bring the fish to market ourselves.
    b) Maintain a Seafood Distribution subsidiary in an existing macro-nation that will allow us to make use of existing trade networks without risking political/legal issues.
    c) Set the price well below the current indonesian export rate and sell to trawlers who can then market our produce as “wild caught”, thus selling them at a prmium. Possibly illegal. No concrete answers from local government.
    how about we eat the food?
    can preserve excess, optionally selling later.
    realistically we should be able to produce products while seasteading.
    so we would only need to get the raw materials from the shore,
    much of it we could likely gather for free.
    though of course we could sell or trade our products,
    I suggest having a fast boat for going to and from land, or trade engagements.
    3) Capital, once again, it seems the estimated cost of this project is well into the 7,000,000 – 15,000,000 range. And a large majority of it is going into the automated anchors and their installation. Unless we find a cheaper solution, we’re severely hampered.
    anchors are pointless, serious yo.
    see any anchored fish in the sea?
    me either. lol
    Okay, maybe kelp, but that’s in fairly shallow water.
    Any thoughts or suggestions?

    arange your pontoons into something that can sail on it’s own. :-)

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #13194
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    NOTE: ALL FIGURES ARE IN SINGAPORE DOLLARS. CURRENT EXCHANGE RATE IS S$1.30 : US$1

    The objective here is to build the aquaculture equivalent of an oil rig in many respects with the exception of the steel structure, that will be replaced with concrete and plastic. That satisfies the basic food requirements for the population as well as generating basic income for the economy. Other industries such as tourism, finance, construction, research and the service sector need a primary industry on which to grow(Hence the term primary industry).

    Annual production targets for the farm are 100,000 tons of finfish(whole weight) and about 20,000 tons of invertebrates. The target cost per kg of biomass was $1.30 and average sale price was $6/kg. That would have allowed us to compete with many of the cheapest industrializing nations. Current cost is $2.60/kg and average sale price is $12/kg. But that’s skewed by the fact that we’re on the same island as our customers and we don’t have to factor transport costs.

    We can produce hexatoons in small volumes(<15,000/month) for just under $150/hexatoon and large volumes at around $50/hexatoon.Each hexatoon has 2.6 square meters.
    As a guide, virgin HDPE costs $1300/ton and recycled HDPE is going for $800/ton
    Concrete can be obtained at $90 per cubic meter from India or Vietnam.
    Sand averages around $30 per cubic meter from the same suppliers
    Granite too sits in the $30 to $50 range, depending on size.

    Also note that a cubic meter of water can support 30 – 40kg of biomass(Fish/inverts) so that gives you a sense of the scale we’re aiming for.

    A few marine engineering companies quoted us $2,000,000 per vaccum anchor. Go figure.

    So to answer the questions:

    Wil,I hope the figures above answer your question. The point though is that seasteading(permanent concrete structures anyway) appears to require a less complex, more permanent and cheaper solution to mooring themselves.

    Elspru, Boats are depreciating assets. They cannot be the basis of a permanent society. In much the same way that civilization never really progressed until we stopped becoming nomadic hunter/gatherers and started marking borders and building cities. And yes, we will eat the fish but we produce several hundred times more than we consume for the purpose of selling it.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #13199
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    40 millions tons of seastead is not going to be moved cost effectively by an engine of any sort. And yes, drifting several Kilometers a day will make it extremely annoying for ships trying to find us. we’re looking at 1 square kilometer of platform.

    Target depth is 5km. Which means a 20km mooring line at minimum and at least an 8 point anchor. 64 to be safe.

    We don’t have a specific location in mind since the objective is to design these things for, “Anywhere within 30º of the equator”.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #13200
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    xns wrote:

    40 millions tons of seastead is not going to be moved cost effectively by an engine of any sort. And yes, drifting several Kilometers a day will make it extremely annoying for ships trying to find us. we’re looking at 1 square kilometer of platform.

    Target depth is 5km. Which means a 20km mooring line at minimum and at least an 8 point anchor. 64 to be safe.

    We don’t have a specific location in mind since the objective is to design these things for, “Anywhere within 30º of the equator”.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    sounds like you might want a few mooring lines – would stink if one broke

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #13201
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Only nuclear power can help you dynamicaly positioning that monster. Good luck!

    PS. Why soooooo big?? It seems out of reach,…

    #13203
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    It’s modular, so it would start much smaller, but the point is that it would eventually reach that size so we’d need to account for that in the future. DP just doesn’t work for anything bigger than an oil tanker. And it’d be quite cheap if you consider that concrete is about $90/2300kg

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #13204
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Then let’s forget about the future and 40 mil tons, for now.

    What’s the size of your 1st planned module?

    #13208
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    xns wrote:

    Elspru, Boats are depreciating assets.

    You could say the same thing about any product.

    Houses are also depreciating assets,

    land generally appreciates to force wage slavery on the people.

    though population has some relation to this theoretically,

    Canada is a prime example of no such correlation.

    We have 0.3 people per square kilometer, yet the lowest price for some wilderness property is $20,000 an acre.

    They cannot be the basis of a permanent society.

    boat modules can be inter-connected to make floating islands.

    Once they get too large to air-sail, can use hydrofoils and sail on the currents.

    In much the same way that civilization never really progressed until we stopped becoming nomadic hunter/gatherers and started marking borders and building cities.

    Most Kings that led successful campaigns of domination were nomads.

    And yes, we will eat the fish but we produce several hundred times more than we consume for the purpose of selling it.

    :o, shock and horror @ industrial fishing!

    you know, if you anger the aliens and seafloor peoples, they can suck you into a whirlpool,

    just like they did to that massive fleet of Zheng He’s chinese ships during their “great voyage”.

    they set off a large explosion under water that caused a vacuum which sucked in the ships off the coast of new zealand.

    that kind of canceled their navy program indefinitely, in fact even to this day Chinese military ships prefer to stay in national waters.

    though if it’s that easy to get food in the ocean,

    at least there should be enough for me and tribe.

    And yes, drifting several Kilometers a day will make it extremely annoying for ships trying to find us. we’re looking at 1 square kilometer of platform.

    You can simply use a radio or sonar beacon to indicate your current location.

    Chances are the boat attempting to find you can move faster than you drift.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #13214
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Ocean: Each module is 2.6 square meters. I expect the phase of construction to be 130 square meters and only 1.7 tons.

    Elspru, Exactly the point, boats depreciate, land does not. We are building land, not boats. And we are not fishing, we’re doing industrial farming. Though the waste from our activities will promote growth of an ecosystem around the farm. And we’ll be sure to drop lots of kelp treats on the merfolk to keep them happy ;)

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #13197
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    it’s a myth. Your best financial solution to that is to maintain a “relative dynamic positioning-RDP”.

    RDP will translate in a controled drift. Since you are 400km offshore and you don’t have to keep that fix to the second of long. or lat., it is fair to assume that drifting 60-70 km a day in any compass direction, with the current won’t interfere with your daily business activity. To compensate, you DO need to have an engine onboard, a diesel. When, lets say after 2 days of drifting 150 km you reach a position close by the EEZ of the nearest nation, just start the engine and head back where you originally started. @ 10 knt (18 km/hr) you need 9 hr to reach that position. That would translate in running your engine 12% of the time you are afloat. Or, just run your engine @ idle speed, in gear all the time. If the current is less then 3knt, you’ll stay in place. Doing so won’t be bad @ all, dollar wise, compared to the price of deepwater anchoring, and all depending of how big your seastead is and the local price of diesel.

    For the above format, in US dollars @ $4/gal, a 100′ seastead with a 400 HP diesel will burn around $500/wk.

    PS: How deep is the water @ the planned mooring location? Is there a current running there? What’s the current’s speed? How big is your seastead?

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