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From Trash to Home

Home Forums Community Active Seasteading Projects From Trash to Home

This topic contains 211 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of JW Freestead JW Freestead 16 minutes ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 212 total)
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  • #23903
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    so none of you guys think the frying pan tower is even worth talking about? its a real seastead. in private operation. it makes a little money too.

    #23904
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It’s a rust bucket in the Atlantic Graveyard. Forgetboutit :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_of_the_Atlantic

    #23905
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    u would rather spend another 2-3 years bickering about whether plastic bottles would help make a more cost effective concrete structure than be supportive of a guy who’s actually out there getting it done. making it happen. not seeing any logic here. the structure has been checked by engineers hired by the government and they say its structurally sound. I bet for $5M that tower could be fully prepped and repainted above and below water, new steel added wherever necessary, and made into a fabulous adventure resort. they could have different themes every week: diving, relaxing, business retreat, whale watching, fishing, Boy Scouts excursions, gambling, surgical procedures, adventure weddings, etc…

    a lot of people focus way too hard on making everything “cheap”. that is not how to make it happen. you have to make a productive or service that is “compelling” and affordable. its like the difference between a ‘nissan leaf’ and a ‘tesla model s’.

    #23906
    Profile photo of Zutai Abunai
    Zutai Abunai
    Member

    Personally, if I was running the frying pan, I would start adding floating structure around it, to house more activities, while using that income, to better the core structure.
    I find nothing wrong with the idea of the frying pan or it’s like. If you have the money to invest in that, do so. I don’t, so I can’t. I have to look cheap, though would love to look bigger first. You have to start where you can. I have to start at the bottom, and build from there, up.

    #23907
    Profile photo of JW Freestead
    JW Freestead
    Member

    If I had $5 million, I would not want to set myself up to have to smile at Chloe Kardashian at 6am complaining that her oatmeal is too cold and North needs a booster seat. I had some friends who bought a dream house to run as a B&B. The dream ended when they had to stay up past 11pm and get up at 5am, 7 days a week during tourist season.

    What is much like seasteading here in the northwest are houseboating communities. The boats can move from one neighborhood to another, or to another “street”. They are definitely flatwater structures unsuited to ocean waves. You could buy 40 houseboats for $5 million. This doesn’t really get an income angle, but you can definitely do all of what you suggest in a houseboat community.

    So what about 20 ocean-worthy houseboats for $250k each (total $5 million)? Something with a low center of gravity, strength enough to withstand storms, and close enough to share resources like eating facilities and medical resources. I think this could be pretty cost effective. What Zutai is wanting is to really start with a low cost platform, and work up and out. Maybe a floating “burning man” campground concept. I can see the dream in that.

    #23908
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    finally, a thoughtful response. i really like the “20 ocean-worthy houseboats for $250k each” idea, but i dont know of any realistic designs. Do you have an example?

    #23909
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Why cut yourselves short with “I bet for $5M…” or “if I had $5 million…”? If you’re tripping in the FANTASYSTEAD, do it the right way for $1 billion or more to start with. It will be a longer high.

    I don’t have time and money to Fry in the Pan. Ask that guy how much money he made there. Zero, nada. That’s why he wants volunteers and sponsors. I know the waters there. That’s a very dangerous place to be hauling people or cargo to a tree house in the middle of the Graveyard. That’s not a seastead but a huge liability. Period. End of story.

    If you want to go and “be supportive” Shreddy, what keeps you for doing that?

    Myself, I like the Keys man,… With mild winters, crystal clear warm waters, coral reefs, good fishing, lots of tourists willing to spend money year long, beautiful laid back girls and plenty of good Caribbean rum.

    That’s where I’ll start seasteading man, nowhere else.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTotNRgSyqs

    #23910
    Profile photo of JW Freestead
    JW Freestead
    Member

    I know it seems a lot, Ocean. I hear you. But think of it this way. Twenty 60×60 foot floats (about the size of a city lot). Each float has four two-bedroom townhomes (2 story), plus a full basement (in the float). So each float houses an average of 10 people. Cost per person is $25k. In rent terms, this is about $200 per month per person. That’s the investment value. In addition there would need to be an HOA fee to cover maintenance and community resources. Could you live with that?

    To raise the money, you would need an investor willing to front the cash, and a bunch of people who are willing to sign up agreements to pay. Figure 200 people total.

    To get to that phase, one should probably build some prototype units. You can probably do a kickstarter for $100k for this. You’ll need a place to park it. Parking place is definitely going to affect the demographics. Park in florida, and Florida people will move it. Park in Washington, and Washington people move in. Parking place also affects taxes and income earning potential. Some towns may even seek to be a parking place for economic purposes, so maybe a shore front community would front the money and the parking space.

    Shred, try a 3-d model for this: 60 x 60 foot float, 1′ walls, 8′ tall, rectangle with cross bracing (like a tic-tac-toe grid). On top of that put a 25×25 foot two story “house” on each corner. That leaves 10 feet in the middle for a walkway, so a connected row of floats becomes a street. I don’t think the foam is a big cost. I think a fiberglass-like casing will be the most expensive component, and the glazing, of course. Sewage and water systems would be like a Lake Powell houseboat (bascially a floating travel trailer, so trailer supply for plumbing and heaing ideas). We can all work out what that may cost on a one-up and also as a batch (doing a batch is cheaper).

    Skin on foam boat:
    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/12/designs/foamboat/index.html

    Foam sandwich construction:
    http://www.bateau2.com/howto/foam1.php

    #23911
    Profile photo of JW Freestead
    JW Freestead
    Member

    BTW – Displacement for 60 x 60 is 223,200 pounds per one foot of depth. So the entire foam structure at 200 tons would only be about two feet deep. You may even need to ballast it to keep it stable.

    More calcs: AeroMarine 2# density foam. Our float alone will use 10,000 cubic feet of foam. Cost here $78,000 but I bet we can half that in good quantities. Weight 10 tons. Figure another 10k cubic feet for the superstructure. So total weight 20 tons including living units.
    http://www.aeromarineproducts.com/boat-foam.htm

    I wonder what the fiberglass costs? Anyone with ideas on per square foot cost for fiberglass sheathing?

    #23912
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KYyRawEmkyI

    JW have a look at this video. I built a flat-bottom rectangular concrete model in 2011. We all agreed that it was only good for smooth waters, not open ocean. Dont anybody fuck with with me for saying ‘we’. By ‘we’ i mean me, oceanopolis, ellmer and some other guys who used to be on here. Wait about 30 seconds and ellmer will probably post a link to a video of a foreign coast guard that built a real flat-bottom floating surveillance station and it rocks too much for permanent residential settlement.

    Ocean, you probably know that i got started in seasteading by designing a floating city for 10 million people that would cost $5 Trillion. I have also designed structures for 10K people, 1K people, and various ‘single-family’ seasteads. I have always said the design needs to be compelling enough to make a sale. If there isnt a single rich guy who is willing to “do it right”, there wont be enough poor fools to do it cheap (aka wrong). But at least im not rooting against anybody.

    #23913
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    You guys are killing me,…:) OK, if you insist with big budget projects, here’s my 2 cents.

    JW,

    Your concept has merits, in terms of being a unique floating apartment complex start up. BUT, I think it will cost much more than $250k for a 60′ x 60′ unit. Your construction will be supervised by the Coast Guard, because it will be considered a “new boat construction”. Everything will have to be done according to CG standards, sine you’ll be commercial. Therefore, you will have to hire marine specialized builders. You will need marine grade sanitation units, big holding tanks, generators, fuel tanks for fuel, AC units, water tanks, water systems, etc, etc. All of the above don’t come cheap AT ALL. When you’ll add up materials + labor, you will be in for a half a million dollar surprise. Also, on top of that, the HOA per unit will be VERY high since you will have to provide a 24 hours ferry service: boat+captains+mates+fuel+maintenance. The further from shore you are the more expensive will get. Unless, of course everybody should get a small 10 ft. dinghy with an outboard and pay for their own transportation.

    It will take you at least one year after financing to get this thing going + the effort.

    In the long run, you’d be better of buying 2 used 60′ houseboats for less than $200k each which will easily house 10 people, raft them up and run them per your actual business plan with the minimum maintenance possible, and save all the money that you make. In few years, sell the business for a profit (and you will), and now with some serious green bucks in your pocket, take your concept to a third world country which has dirt cheap labor and build a 200′ x 200′ concrete seastead.

    It will take you just a couple of month after financing to get this thing going – the effort.

    Also keep in mind that run as a rental, your venture will have a low profit margin compare to a recreation-accommodation type venture, in the same location. Let me put it this way, what you’ll make in one month rent you’ll make in one week otherwise.

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Norris-Craft-17%27-9%26quot%3B-x-70%27-with-Catwalks-2653438/Norris-Lake/TN/United-States#.VAFXHDJdWSo

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/Jamestowner-Houseboat-16-x-72-2427325/Dale-Hollow-lake/KY/United-States#.VAFXSDJdWSo

    Shreddy,

    I did tell you back than that I really like the concept but totally disagreed with the square shape and I sugested at least a triangle (tristead, remember,…http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/reply/i-do-tristead-idea-surface-seasteads/). We even got into a cursing match ’bout that, lol :)

    Well, nothing changed :)

    Now, what I REALLY don’t understand is why on Earth would you guys want to start with something so expensive, have outside investors involved, build from scratch, etc, when seasteading is still “uncharted business territory”, therefore high risk investment, and it will be really hard to get even $50,000.00 venture capital and forget about a bank loan.

    Why not do something small for $20-30,000.00 cash and make $40,000.00 profit in first year (which, by the way, I can prove on paper), and with that “proof of concept” in hand we can get millions in financing right away.

    #23914
    Profile photo of Zutai Abunai
    Zutai Abunai
    Member

    Ocean, that is pretty much my goal with my project. I am just starting a few steps before the house boats of that price…
    Along side having it build in a country that will be able to price things better, you can also hire many from that country, as a work force, to keep it staffed. It is always better to have more people working to the same goal, if not your goals, per the money :P

    #23915
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Wow my very first thread on TSI forums. It went a little rough. Somehow i didnt recall your tristead reply but i think we also discussed it on another thread later on.

    Simply put, I WILL FULLY SUPPORT EVERY PROJECT THAT INTENDS TO MAKE A PROFIT. I have a full year experience working in 5 different California shipyards as a steel surface prep technician / painter. I have been a Sketchup artist since 2009. I have worked in paint off and on since 1997. Formerly a NACE certified CIP level 1. I have a 2-year engineering degree, and a 4-yr Leadership degree. I have morally supported seasteading since 2009. I have built 2 functional physical models of my own conceptual designs.

    https://sites.google.com/site/richardmallenbio/career/jobs-worked

    The reason my designs started on a city scale and get smaller and smaller is the same reason Spacex talks about going to Mars. It’s a big lofty dream, meant to insire the imagination. I continue to divide it into smaller, more manageable pieces. I just havent found traction yet because there is a threshold to seasteading. It’s very technical and cannot be done very cheaply. I was knocked on my ass when Ellmer told me a few years ago how much it costs to rent a drydock. Then, after having the opportunity to work in one for several months I clearly understood why. Its extremely technical and requires vast amounts of human and financial capital.

    Here is why I like Frying Pan Tower. When you study the literature the guy has owned it since 2010 and has not reported any injuries in transit or onboard the structure. Richard Neal (the owner) will tell you it is a for-profit venture. If you saw the online reservations calendar before summer they had a very full schedule of weekend customers paying $498 each for a 3-day stay. Yes, Mr. Neal solicits volunteers and donations. And he gets them because people are happy to participate! 4 years ago the guy had a rusty old piece of junk that was abandoned for almost 2 decades. Now he is building momentum. He has 12 200w solar panels, 3 different size gasoline generators, running water, 8 furnished bedrooms, an updated kitchen, a pool table, a HAM radio, INTERNET via microwave transponder, a steady stream of volunteers who often pay for their own transportation and help provide materials. The interior is fairly clean. He has established relationships with the nearest marina and civil airport who offer transport service.

    Im not urging anybody to give him money or go volunteer (unless u feel inclined to), I just wish my fellow seasteaders would join together and morally support Mr. Neal for the success he is having. Its not like he’s the enemy. He is helping to blaze the trail and keep it lit for all of us.

    #23916
    Profile photo of JW Freestead
    JW Freestead
    Member

    Ocean I hear you. Go ahead and do it. There’s no real reasons for these projects to be in the way of each other.

    You remind me of Me about 25 years ago. But I learned stuff since then. For me, now, following the rules and having the project be safe is paramount to being able to sell it and get my money out if I want. When I bought my first house 25 years ago, it was a shack that cost me $400 per month on five acres. It was a lot of fun to work on, and I sold it for a hefty profit. I never drew a single building permit.

    Look at something like that – low cost of entry, and get it all going. I’ll come visit ;-)

    #23917
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTU91LIy_U&list=UUIJ3j0dXThBZ–KIHF3p9HA&index=9

    HERES A LIL BIT… OF WHAT… OCEAN… IS TALKING ABOUT!!!! IT CAN BE… A LITTLE BIT WINDY… OUT HERE ON THE… FPT!!! SOMETIMES!! BUT ALSO… IT CAN BE…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qh-pJ8qqr0&list=UUIJ3j0dXThBZ–KIHF3p9HA&index=16

    …like really nice!

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