From Trash to Home
August 28, 2014 at 8:07 am #23885
The 400 is for a boat that needs a refit. The 1000, is for a basic refit, done by me, or others that will work for free-cheap. I’m not looking to take a sea-dew, and make a tanker out of it. I want something that floats, and can make a basic income, if I am putting so little money into it.August 28, 2014 at 9:29 am #23887
I object to the F-word too that shredder used earlier.
How low is this thread going to go?
Can someone clean that out?August 28, 2014 at 9:35 am #23888
Fuck. Off.August 28, 2014 at 12:02 pm #23889
The direction of this thread is really good. I wrote a long post a couple days ago, but didn’t post it because this is Zutai’s thread. I have my own thread here in seastead fiction but it’s not active. So let’s appreciate the activity and push forward. Sorry about the length here…
I have a project, and it is fiction. But if I’m right about it, I’m going to be able to push this movement forward quite a bit. I’m hoping to release an ebook sometime between October and January. It is a short story, a near-future account of the first Libertarian seastead. The story timeline is 2025 about a seastead launched in 2018.
I feel a story can move us forward a lot. Even if my writing is bad, and no one agrees with my ideas, it will get people thinking. Thought experiments go a long way to the first working reality. I’m very much into practical seasteading, so by making a thought experiment with costs outlined, and benefits imagined, then maybe someone will find a breakthrough in either lower costs or another key benefit.
Zutai, I don’t know much about low-end boat costs. But I see things floating in my local river that didn’t cost much. These are usually docks or swim floats tied up to regular boats. In summer a lot of people have docks with couches, plants, TVs and tents. In calm waters with no storms it will get you floating.
For the purpose of my story I ballparked a basic first-generation seastead apartment as $1.5 million for 900 square feet. $3m gets you a 3 bedroom place. The monthly HOA would be about $1k per month to cover food and shared facilities (medical team, dental, logistics, imports). What this gets is a $25 million concrete honeycomb float, 160×160 feet, with 44 apartment style units on top, capable of withstanding 20 foot waves (not ocean but bay waves) and a cat-5 hurricane. Figure $240 million for four floats, total to include design costs, towing to place, a negotiated mooring place for the city. In my story, the residents find this cost is not viable, and the city nearly fails by the third year. Due to a windfall, they create their own new technology using foam and fiberglass construction to make a 60×60 float, with 1-4 units on top. This brings the cost down to $65k for a 1400 sq ft 2 bedroom townhouse shared 4 to a float. A single house on a 60×60 float would be abut $200k, like an ocean-worthy houseboat. For renters that means the townhouse at $350 per month rent, and the house for $1200 per month or so. Figure about $500 per month per resident for shared food and medical resources. Now we’re cooking because real people can afford this.August 28, 2014 at 12:21 pm #23890
your motherAugust 28, 2014 at 12:23 pm #23891
We are getting to the intelligent par of seasteading.August 28, 2014 at 12:23 pm #23892
So where is the moderator now?August 28, 2014 at 12:36 pm #23893
What u guys think of this?
It was trash but now its being used like a home.August 28, 2014 at 12:39 pm #23894
JW, I like your idea about using foam, and thought about that long before I looking into the plastics. Much of the Styrofoam that we use these days is easy to recycle, but is not, due to a lack of people taking it. this Styrofoam, is being used to build roads, due to it’s lack of deterioration of time. If I had a place to take in, and reshape the used Styrofoam, then I would have a very cheap, long lasting, and possibly strong resource to build with. With a thin coating of concrete or the like, the surface would not be eaten away at, and not end up as a pollutant. Using other forms of foam would also help when looking to spread the size, rather then adding new pieces. A mix of foams and concretes, would probably be the best fit, when looking to build from the sea up, and you have the money for it. Using another tactic for quick and dirty building, would be to gather up all the things already floating in river ways and the like, and coat them with foam, till they are solid enough to build on.August 28, 2014 at 2:04 pm #23895
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
You might like to investigate the projects of the Floating Neutrinos and Richi Sowa in this context. My version of floating foam pieces, plastics bottles, etc…bonded with fiberconcrete turned out to be a “solid floating island” capable to carry a light 2 story building on top…rough building cost estimate 20 USD/squarmeter real estate. We built that as a pilot for a government project to give low cost floating platforms to the flood victims of the magdalena river…the technology worked fine, the government funding never came…we might use that technology (or part of it) in combination with honeycomb and shell building for the floating structures of the Cartagena Marine Cluster…August 28, 2014 at 3:58 pm #23896
On foam as a building structure: Luckily my fictional story is in the future. So we have five years to figure it out.
Recycled Styrofoam is problematic. Unless you have a local source, it can cost more in labor and fuel to transport it than the cost of material. So the best you can get is a government subsidy to collect it at a recycling center, then to pay to get it to you. It may be more cost effective to heat and reduce Styrofoam to it’s component plastic, but at that level contaminants will be a real problem.
What is in my mind is the low expansion type insulation foam that they use in houses. This is transported as two liquids. Onsite application is to combine the liquids via a nozzle. The resulting foam is considerably larger than the liquids, will expand for a length of time 5 minutes to several hours, and then congeal into a solid.
Generally, this type of foam is not structural, and can’t be used to hold a shell together. I feel this is a fixable problem. Conceivably an epoxy based fibrous material could be poured at the same time as the foam, or pre-cast and then foam filled. The result is a two-part structural foam platform. I imagine this can be extruded using a 60 x 60 foot 3d printer, making a 3 story structure in about a week, with minimum hand tooling. The utilties can be set in conduit at the time the walls are poured for plumbing, electric and sewer. The only after-pour fittings would be window glazing, rails, counter tops and doors.
That’s at least, what I think we can figure out within 5 years.August 28, 2014 at 6:07 pm #23897
I thought of foam or plastic bottles bonded with concrete too, but on second thoughts it’s not that efficient because you’re wasting cubic space which can be used for water tanks, sewage tanks, fuel tanks, storage space, auxiliary equipment, etc.
Buoyancy is achieved by displacing a volume of water REGARDLESS how you displace such volume. Therefore, it should be displaced by a “hull” like structure (empty) so you can use the space inside.
If not, and since you will have to built that space on top of the “float” no matter what, your construction costs will be much higher.
My view is to keep it simple and use what is already proved to be working: ferrocement for structures under 100′ LOA and steel reinforced concrete for over 100′ LOA.August 29, 2014 at 6:36 am #23898
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
ocean, no the concept does not consist in assembling trash and hold it together somehow in a floating island. This is a real building material. Concrete is a composite material consisting of cement (bonder) fiber (rebar) and fillers (aggregates). In concrete engineering you use rocks the size of plastic bottles frequently as fillers. What happens when you replace the rock with the bottle? what if replacing a sand grain with a styrofoam particle what when replacing a rebar rod with a bamboo fiber, a coconut fiber, or other fibers available. This is what our pilot was looking for answers – so this goes far beyond Richi Sowas goofy trash islands it is applied material science. If you break this island in the middle NOTHING will fall out. It will not only stand waves but also “periodical stranding and refloat” in the rythm of the river floodings. Althogh a solid block of the material will float, you still can build chamberd honeycomb structures and elegant thin shell dome structures out of it. The cost depends 80% on the solutions that you can get in place to aquire material and handle material until it forms part of the build. What i have investigated in pilot projects so far, real estate squaremeter numbers as mentioned above are feasibe in South America where i live, but this will be very different for a location Florida where you live – a truck of plastic bottles dumped at the shoreline even if it is for 5 minutes will get you a LOT of interference.http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t56351996/business-and-third-party-interference-freedom/ – in colombia close to none.
Our project was also a government project where we where asked to “solve the engineering” for a float out project that had a specific “social component” being part of the construction infrastructure, the baseline was to find out the most economic method to float poor people’s homes in a floodplain to keep them safe when the river takes his natural course…Again what is called “ferrocement” in boatbuilder cycles is one of the most unwise combinations of cement, fiber, and filler, in a marine ambient, it is like figuring out a method to maximize the destructive action of salt on unadequatly placed rebar (2cm contrete cover required, compacting of material not possible, convienient embedd does not happen). It is truly surprising that there is ANY ferrocement boat that is not falling apart inmediatly a few months after its building – it is talking well of the skill level of the builder. (the strong dependance of the method on the skill level of the builder is its weakness). There is also a “coding issue” in Florida, you are not free to build “homes” out of any material you want. You are not even free to build homes in anything else than square shape because the codes regulate slab and column size – if you do not handle slab and column you can not build… check the earthship project on that…The reason to figure out concrete floating technology that goes beyond houseboating is here: http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/from-trash-to-home/page/5/#post-23875
Transition capcity is the most important point. We already know what has NO trasition capacity, Tanka, Housboats, Ship technology, glassfiber yacht building, etc.etc.. (if it had we would see seasteads by now) – so the thing that comes closest is concrete technology – large scale is trival and solved since the seventies (TrollA, Adriatic, Monaco) small scale (house size, thin honeycomb shells, light building) is subject of our investigation we have a lot of interesting pilots on that…see more on some of those pilots…http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t51104686/cartagena-concrete-floating-platforms/August 29, 2014 at 9:27 am #23900
I think trash can be a viable part of foam float construction. If you ran plastic trash (pop bottles) through a stripper or shredder, and used strips in the foam, it would become a fibrous binder which would add to hull integrity. Alternately, foam can be used to bind trash so that it no longer exists in a free floating state.
This would be useful to help clear the oceans of floating trash.August 29, 2014 at 11:24 am #23902
We did talked about ferrocement before. Yes, I have seen some really bad ones, mostly home made, “bleeding” all over the place, and yes, there are still hundreds sailing the oceans as we speak. Regardless what you think or what I think it is what it is, and the method oh construction is determined by how much money you have in your wallet.
Now, I am working for a living and I am not a rich person. When and if I will invest my money into a “seasteading project” it will be in the range of under $20,000.00 start up capital. More likely it will be along the lines of a “hang out on the water” type of venture, close to shore, which will provide the public with a “floating platform” for them to fish from, sunbath, go snorkeling from, rent jet skis, grab a burger and a beer, pay me for that and go home happy. Repeat.
The only way I’m going to do that on $20k is to start with a houseboat as such “floating platform” and gradually add few ferrocement floating dock around it. I can’t do ANYTHING else for that kind of money and that’s a fact. So, I HAVE to be a very skillful builder if I want to succeed…I guess.
The transition capacity of such venture is the ability to generate profit, grow and generate more profit, nothing else. Further down the road, with a higher start up capital now, the same concept can be built and operated 15 nm offshore, at a different scale, with better accommodations. Repeat.
Only at this point I can look into building honeycomb structures from scratch.
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