From Trash to Home
August 23, 2014 at 5:39 pm #23835
Well, it’s not that simple.
What safety has to do with government interference?
Should we think now that in a community that decides to govern itself with the least government presence (let’s assume a referendum based one) there will be no stop lights, traffic signs, seat belts, food and water inspections for contamination, etc, etc? Or on a seastead of such nature, out in the middle of the ocean, there will be no safety regulations of some sort?
I don’t think so.August 23, 2014 at 8:19 pm #23836
“Freedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is
defined by the ability of citizens to live
without government interference. Government cannot
create a world without risk, nor would we really
wish to livein such a fictional place.”
I like Ron Paul. There are lots of comments I could make
about this quote. Just to make it simple and not to
open a can of worms:
“Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live
without government interference.”
As I see the operative word in this sentence: live.
So, without life there is no freedom.
And , bla bla bla and so forth.August 23, 2014 at 9:43 pm #23837
Ocean, the key is balance in all things. Though we may want full freedoms, and no government involvement, without those involvements, we would be eating far more harmful chemicals, than we already are. There must be a balance, in all forms of governing.August 24, 2014 at 12:13 am #23838
And such balance should not be only in governance, but in economy, society, environment and all other aspects of life in general.
On a philosophical note, I always said that seasteading should actually start by identifying and creating the “system” first, and than building the real seastead. We are approaching seasteading in a “reverse” fashion, since we are rushing in to build a seastead first without even having a dialog how we are going to run it and how we will govern ourselves.
More then likely we are setting us up for failure…
If seasteading is a peaceful revolution (which I believe it is, and for a lack of a better word) we have to learn from history and realize that all revolutions (bad and good ones) have started with an ideology followed by implementation, not the other way around.August 24, 2014 at 6:50 am #23839
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
Guys we are quite off topic in this thread the thread theme is “From Trash to Home” so instead to comment i will just put a couple of references. The discussion is not new we had it historicly as “enlightenment and industrial revolution”
The outcome – french revolution, american constitution democratic government as it is.
Today there is a new player on this philosophical field who allows to do things that where impossible 1700-1900: the Blockchain Technology: http://concretesubmarine.activeboard.com/t57838040/blockchain-technology/
More about the topic in this thread:
http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/lessons-from-history-frontiers-and-enlightenment/August 24, 2014 at 11:04 am #23842
I don’t think that we are off topic at all.
This is Zutai’s original post:
“I have planned out a project that will have many aspects that most would find of use to the planet as a whole, and the individuals as well. Though the acquisition of the plastic already in the oceans, it is possible to fill nets, that when tethered together, they can form a rather buoyant raft. With many of these rafts, it is possible to build an island, large enough to house a village or town, as it grows large enough for a city.
The plan as it stands, is to use dredge pumps to pump water into nets, in the most concentrated areas of the pacific gyre, to gather up enough plastic, to sausage out the nets. With the plastics still in the water, they will continue to absorb the hydrophobic chemicals, and remove them from the ecosystem, for the most part. As we gather more and more plastic into these nets, tying them together, they would build a raft that in turn, will let us build on. The plastics are removed from the oceans, and we have a system to build on top of. Many people will come to aid, merely to help get the plastics out of the ecosystem, due to it’s damage to the wildlife. Making this part of the project, one that should have the most aid.
Once the raft is large enough, farms should be the first things we start, due to the roots reaching down into the plastic, to make it more stable. With the farms shielding the plastics from the sun, while binding them in a root cluster, we will have little worry for the lifespan of the raft. We will have to look into using sea weeds and the like, for the edges of the raft though. Something that will not die off fast, and grow fast, as we force the middle areas into shade, while the edges grow outward. With these root system, salt water should be less of an issue, when looking at the saltwater contamination of the crops. Though we should still look into salt tolerant plants, for the early farms.
Once the farms have made the base more stable, we can look into the types of buildings we want to place on the raft. Placing a concrete base on the soil/plastic, will help it to stay firm, as the raft shifts in the waves, but it would have to be self stable. We would need to make it so it does not crack of crumble, as it’s base shifts. Making the concrete thicker, can help with this, while keeping the buildings farther apart, would help them to be able to shift with the shape of the raft. Early builders would be best suited for living quarters and farm houses. Large buildings will not come in till the raft can be stabilized. Roads may be one of the hardest things we try to build on this shifting surface. We may look into using something other than concrete or asphalt, due to the early traffic being by foot anyway.
As the raft grows, and it’s ports becomes busy with trade, the economy of the town/city will come into it’s own. At this time, we would look into finding a place to settle down, and way anchor. Sending a tube down into the seafloor, and turning it into an elevator shaft, will give us the ability to mine the bedrock of the ocean. With this, there will be a lot of junk rock that we cant use. This junk rock, will be used to build up under the raft, till it is able to make the raft, into a true island. As the island takes shape, larger buildings will be able to take shape. Giving us the ability to build factories that are able to process resources, and send off products to the docks for trade. While at the same time, the mines will give us a new place to build. Sending most of our industrial buildings underground, will give us a way to channel the exhaust from all of them, into an algae filtration system. Taking in the noxious fumes, and giving us fresh air, to let into our city.
The government system as it is currently planned, with be a monarchy, with a council having most of the power. The king would be able to step in and act as an enforcer in times when the council is acting against the best interests of the people, but should not make a habit of it, when not needed. Having a council per topic, would make it so each resource is used in the best way. Defense, offense, schools, farms, mines, and trade, will be the main council types, so as to best run the country. With this, there should be less struggle with the budget, and how it is used, when it comes time to build a military, vs. build a school. Both systems will have options to budget themselves, and find ways to make money independently.
There is also plans for an economic system, that strives to use the best of socialism, and capitalism to make the best possible system. With no basic bills like rent, net, electric, and food, the money they do bring home from their jobs, will be all for play. With a lack of minimum wage, and a lack of basic bills, you will be able to find the work you want, over the work you need. With this system, there will be little to no poverty in the country. Outsiders will have to pay a major tax, that brings things up to a “normal” outside price though. This economic system, will have to be gone over in greater detail though.
As the island grows, it will become clear that we will have many kinds of people, struggling to live side by side. There will come a point, when we must build more islands, using our economic powers. With such, we will be able to use the knowledge we have gained, to build the new islands faster, stronger, and longer lasting, then the first one. Having the power to build a network of islands with their own governing system, will give us the ability to customize more so, to each personality type. There will come an island for those who are set in their old ways, and those who are striving for the new. There will come those who are strict on their laws, and those who build a sea Vegas. With each one prospering in their own ways, the group, will prosper in total.
Some of these ideas may seem lofty, but with each step taken in small amounts, we will have those lofty goals. I ask for any who are willing to make those small steps with me, to join in on the project. I may not be aiming for those big fancy buildings like others, but I am aiming for a new future. I ask that you help me find that future, and help it to become a better one.”August 24, 2014 at 11:06 am #23843
Ocean, through the topic itself has not come up in the thread, it has been mentioned in the original post. Due to my A.D.D., I have thought long and hard about the balance of the government, and how to make sure it does not take over the lives of those it is meant to protect.
Ellmer, due to the original post, talking about the system of government is not off topic, as you feared. I would greatly welcome a discussion on this, so as to iron out the wrinkles in my current plans.
Though I am for a monarchy, i plan to have the control in the in the council that is elected by the masses. Though, both ends of the system, should be able to call for a vote to impeach the other. With a monarchy acting like a democracy, you should be able to find a better balance to the system, due to how much you end up having to like the people in charge, to elect them. With many councils managing the separate topics, Schooling, Defense, Offense, Economics, Foreign Affairs, Agriculture, etc. Doing this should help to balance out the bills that are discussed per the people that actually know something about them. Should help to keep unrelated add-ins, from getting forced into legislation, too…August 24, 2014 at 12:51 pm #23844
I am OK with the topic and the discussion. If someone does not like it
he can start a topic for himself. I think, since Zutai started this topic,
he can define what is off topic.
Since Zutai mentioned monarchy, I would like to mention anarchy.
By anarchy I do not mean chaos, but I mean natural laws. But I think ;
I wrote about it before. Anarchy and natural laws are not my inventions.
Some of these things naturally derive from each other. Such as a right for life
has to include the right for self-defense.
The right for freedom (freedom of life) includes life.
So a seastead has to defend and sustain the human life against the elements.
I think, it is correct to talk about natural conditions where a seastead is going to be.
There are going to be difficulties: waves, storms, climate, need for food,
need for drinking water. etc…
What are the conditions, and how to accommodate life under those conditions.
Lots of these conditions are governed by natural laws (example: wave hight, air temperature,
water temperature…etc…) So in my opinion, an anarchist point of view has to
observe the physical reality, and appropriate accommodations are necessary to sustain life.
Some of these theories have to originate from natural phenomenons, those are self-evident to
those who want to live according to those phenomenons
(For example: there has to be a right for life, because I have life. It is a self-evident
phenomenon that I experience.)
I am interested about how to accommodate a free life.
Respectfully;August 24, 2014 at 1:03 pm #23845
I don’t think a monarchy (or even a constitutional monarchy) would be the answer. Why use a medieval system in the 21st century?
Also, I would stay away from the representative democracy system that is used nowadays, mostly worldwide. Just look around the world and see how good that’s working,….It basically degenerated worldwide into a de facto totalitarian corporatist plutocracy.
We should start by looking not at what we want as a personal choice, but what we really NEED in terms of governing a seastead. The fact of the matter is that if in 10 years from today we will have a 500 people seastead, that will be a huge success. Assuming such scenario as a fortunate possible outcome, what kind of governance and more importantly, HOW MUCH of it do we really NEED for 500 people? Not much at all, in fact…
To me, a direct democracy system (referendum based) would be the best choice..
I called it unanimocracy. Unanimocracy is a referendum based democracy in which a high percentage absolute supermajority vote is required for any legislation to become law. It is my belief that the unanimocracy system will create a smaller government, fewer laws and diminish political opposition, thus reducing social antagonism. Smaller government, fewer laws and less political opposition combined, will result in better preserved individual freedoms and a better, more stable and fair political system.
Personally, I won’t participate in any seasteading project that’s not based on (or at least similar in ideology) to the above principles.August 24, 2014 at 1:40 pm #23846
As I have seen throughout the world, through out history, no matter what type of government it is, as long as the people are happy, it doesn’t matter. If you build your government with that goal in mind, you could have a full monarchy running beautifully, and no one will say a word. We started with a system that we thought was the best there is, and it has become something that is scoffed at. No matter what you start with, you have to look at what it can become in the future, as it falls apart. Monarchy worked for quite a long time, before the system fell into itself. If you use the voting system along side it, then you can extend that system to the point that it is per the masses, rather than merely those in control, that corrupt it.August 24, 2014 at 3:02 pm #23847
I agree that in general, if people are happy, we could say that the system works, even though happiness is a very relative word. (a person living on $1/day would be ecstatically happy with $10/day). But I don’t agree with your assumption that since monarchy was here for a long time, it “worked”. It didn’t. For centuries monarchs ruled by the sword as totalitarian warmongers who enslaved and killed hundreds of millions of people during the course of history.
Regardless, I don’t see how this is gonna work in the context of seasteading, even if the “king” is benevolent and it’s monarchy constitutional. Since kings don’t get “elected”, somebody has to proclaim himself “king”. That’s a very non-democratic process, to start with. Even so, assuming that one does that and comes up with a seasteading plan, than I think the “king” should build the seastead himself, out of his on pocket. He’s the king, it’s got to be his own kingstead
If you want to be king, Zutai, can you build a seastead on your own cash? ’cause if you can, when it’s done, I’ll come and call you “your highness”, if you insist But if you can’t, what’s the point of your seasteading monarchy?
“Anarchy” is not the proper word do describe what you envision. Maybe an “environmental self sustainable seasteading applied realism”?August 25, 2014 at 10:18 am #23848
Thank you.August 25, 2014 at 11:16 am #23849
Due to being the only planning force towards building my island, I would fall into the position of “king”. “King” in this being similar to a present, but there is no regular voting for or against him, leaving him with the option of a lifetime term, that can be passed down through his family, till one of them is voted out of office. This will help to prevent them from ruling by force along, as it was in the days of old.
As things stand, unless I can get a large enough force of people to work on this for free, I will be joining another project, to get the resources I need for when I am able to start building. Making me king in the sense that you stated. Still, the king would be a mere title most of the time. The job would be pr between the masses, and the councils. Making the masses fears/hopes known in a way that the council can do something about, and back. Leaving the king as the middle man between the masses and the government. His only true kingly duty, would be when he need to oppose the council, in the name of the masses. Forcing him to be a servant of the masses, throughout his term, rather than the other way around.August 25, 2014 at 12:55 pm #23850
Whatever rocks your kingstead, dude,…I mean King Zutai
At this point, it is a bit unclear to me in what capacity you would join another seasteading project. What other skills other than king would you bring aboard? “cause I’ve been here for a while and I’ve never heard anybody saying: “Man, we need a king sooooooooo badly for our seasteading project and we can’t get one….”August 25, 2014 at 1:11 pm #23851
That appears to be true what you wrote about the king. I think, that is called: captain , on a vessel.
There is a difference between a vessel and a floating structure. I thin international law (marine-time law)
recognizes it. Florida state law definitely recognizes this difference, and has different registrations for them.
As long as a king or a captain goes, the political point of a seastead would be that individuals can come and
leave as they wish. So when there is a bad captain, and there are bad rules, that captain can enjoy loneliness.
The start would be probably individual seasteads, and the builder would be the owner and the captain.
I would like to use the word captain instead of king. The captain can determine who may come aboard, and under
The reason of why there is no physical seasteads built yet, may be that persons cannot agree on the rules of the
seastead. Kind of like “if I do not get this or that, then I am not interested building the seastead.
This could also be an escape and a justification for persons who have lots of words but little actions.
In my opinion ocean farming is a way to overcome this.
I think, the first thing would be necessary is to build something strong enough to support life in open ocean conditions
under any weather. A spherical structure seems to be reasonable. This spherical structure would be mostly submerged,
so big waves would roll over it. Further more it would be beneficial if the sphere could be submerged completely
under water depth 2 or 3 times the height of the waves. The first and experimental structures would need to be small.
I think it could become a kind of ocean farming seastead. It could be a single person operation. And there could be
multiples of these in close proximity to each other. Each ocean farming seastead would have a captain, and there the
plot thickens: how would these captains cooperate and get along with each other and with the main land.
Well, something like this.
This is not a discussion or question and answer kind of communication.
It is more like lamentation.
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