November 10, 2009 at 4:54 pm #1114
Why do we feel that we have the right to control our own destiny? Where does this idea come from?
I reasoned that this is not a natural state of being but something that we have been influenced to expect. Since we began life as a random mix of genetic pieces from our parents that even they have no say in, it logically seems that a chaotic random life is the fruitition of our existence. Do we seek freedom as an extention of this chaotic nature, as an expression of it? If so, how is organized freedom even a possibility, as law and chaos seem so diametrically opposed?
Many people who have a desire to live in freedom seem to have an enlarged sense of purpose and freedom is a need for expression of this purpose. Where did creatures of accidental existence pick up the idea that they have purpose and why does this same sentiment seem to be shared across cultural and national borders? Purpose speaks of a pre-ordained plan but even our parents have very limited capacity in this regard. Furthermore, the purpose most people resolve to pursue is not the purpose that their parents had for them. If the plan was made from our parents, then to depart from that seems to put this idea of purpose back into the area of chaotic accidents. How can purpose, and the freedom required to achieve that purpose, exist within the framework of chaotic accidental life?
In my mind they cannot. The above is an example of the thoughts that brought me to the understanding that there must be something apart from natural life that is responsible for those apects of humanity that seperate us from everything else on this planet. After searching for two years I found my answer to who and what this ‘something’ must be. What that answer is is irrelevent to my question.
I do not wish to force others to believe as I do, the whole point is that each person come to this understanding on their own… or not. My frustration is that a mentality of ‘or not’ spread across just a few generations leads to corruption and acts that many of us would describe as ‘evil’. I believe that the freedom to practice any religion is important as people attempt to understand their relationship to a God or Gods responsible for their existence. The religion of atheism taken to it’s logical conclusion of accidental creation and life’s inherant lack of purpose leads to dark places. Not all atheists take this path as many of them have strong convictions, but the path I am wary of is one of no belief at all… it’s lazy and self centered.
As many acts of religious zealots are indeed terrible, a society of tolerance to one’s pursuit of God breeds moderation. A society built on the understanding and education that we’re all accidents instead of an awareness of a God and an understanding that we are responsible to a God for our actions is what we currently have in America through our public school system. I abandon this framework of education in America and desire to build a framework for a new society from the somewhat successful one we had running in America before special interests (on both sides of the aisle) took control a long long time ago. To re-create the great experiment.
As opposed to many who would like to theorize about what kind of society they would like on their seastead, I find myself preparing to launch my seastead… in the form of Seastead Outpost: Belize. I hope to have solidified my position on this issue sooner rather than later as it will impact our daily lives and everyone should be in agreement before making the move. The point is this is not an excersize in imagination or creativity but a work of neccesity.
So here is my question: As I persue seasteading and lead others in this effort what responsibility do I have when it comes to matters of belief? I’ve taken to study of many things in this effort. Aside from the Bible, I’ve been researching the American founding fathers as they were men of belief who built a society of freedom rather than of control. I wish to emulate them on a smaller scale. Any advice, help, reference material, lines of thought, etc would be helpful. After all, no man is an island to themself.
-JasonNovember 10, 2009 at 6:42 pm #8596
Welcome back Pastor_J.Pastor_Jason wrote:
As I persue seasteading and lead others in this effort what responsibility do I have when it comes to matters of belief?
None. It is your seastead. Just as you design the concrete walls, you design the society that will live behind those concrete walls.November 10, 2009 at 7:04 pm #8598
Good point, and thanks for the warm welcome. Having the responsibility of designing a society is ‘higher than my pay-grade’ to borrow a familiar phrase. Instead of saying none, it seems like you are saying ‘all’.
I know it has to be done, I just don’t like having to do it. I would have it that those who would come would abide by certain behaviors but that won’t happen on it’s own, which is why these things need to be laid out plainly from the beginning. Managing expectations.
My personal beliefs direct me to make sure God is a part of things and is given due credit for his part of this work. At the same time this effort should be comfortable for people of any belief to participate in. Christian principles may be at the core of the work and the foundation that we build our little group on but religious participation would not be forced. We could pray before our meals without a person of different faith being insulted, just as during a time of meditation in jiu-jitsu class is a time when I pray silently rather than practice buddism.
An example would be educating my daughters to fully understand the scientific models behind the evolutionary theory and the creation theory presented in the book of Genesis. I don’t feel that learning both indoctrinates any one path but provides an open point of view to understand our world. I would think these principles could easily be taught to both sides. Religious edjucation would be mandated just like any other study but be the responsibility of parents to provide or arrange as they desired.
Much of this has nothing to do with the original group that builds SO:B. However, if that is the eventual intent, shouldn’t it be known from the start. I for one would not wish to build the physical building of a muslim extremist facility that trained suicide bombers and I empathize with those who view my beliefs in a similar light. At the same time, I see my principles as being some of those that created great empires through-out history and we must build the foundation before building the great work.
I need help putting this foundation in place. Thus, this thread with the question. Anything you think would go into building a great society is something I am interested in reading. I’ve read a lot already but I’m sure some of you have exposure to sources I’m not familiar with. I appreciate the feedback and recommendations.
-JasonNovember 11, 2009 at 4:06 am #8611
Freedom…….Of religion, will always be a touchy topic to a great deal amount of people. I personally, am not religious. I am not anit-religion either though. I don’t practice believing there is or isn’t a god, or waste my time trying to figure out which one is right or truer than another.
Something I do want to bring up is intolerance of religion. When starting a society, I believe that any religion should be allowed to be practiced, but not forced on anybody else. Something close to how America has handled religion with it’s separation of church and state policy. I personally don’t have a problem hearing a prayer at a public function coming from a preacher or priest from any particular religion. There are those out there that don’t believe that this is fair to non-religious people to have to hear and put up with. Those people are intolerant. Either intolerant of hearing a prayer from a different religion from what they practice, or a non-believer, and I believe that a good society should shy away from this behavior and foster tolerance of anybody and everybody’s personal beliefs, just as long as they are not trying to force it on somebody.
After all, is it going to kill you to stand there and listen to a short prayer they are saying for their benefit and to show that you are a polite and tolerant individual toward them.
I have a perfect example of intolerance that illustrates just how intolerant our society has grown in the States. Now I used to be in the army, and have deployed a couple of times to Iraq. There I met so many great individuals that were nice and great people to talk to and associate with. It just so happens that they were practicing Muslims as well. They harbored no offense to the US, and didn’t agree with the radicals of their religion that are performing indecent acts around the world. And I know that most of you have probably heard about the shooting that took place last week at Ft. Hood, TX by the army Major that was a Muslim, acting alone and against his fellow soldiers. I happen to live right outside of the post, and I have heard so many disheartening things since then. From, all Muslims that are in the military should come under immediate investigation, to all Muslims should be kicked out of the military effective immediately and not allowed in any more, and many more things to this affect. I can tell you first hand, not all Muslims are anti-American, although that is how they are largely portrayed for some reason here in the west. This is behavior that should not be tolerated in a truly civilized society.
PJ, nothing really against you but the comment:
“but the path I am wary of is one of no belief at all… it’s lazy and self centered.”
I don’t really agree with you in that I don’t think it is lazy. Maybe a person has no need to find a belief… is that lazy, or simply they are focused on other things in life. Also I think that if they have no belief, then they are probably farther from being self centered, than most people that practice a religion of some form, since they really aren’t focusing on themselves and the continual practice of their religion. This may border toward an intolerance against people that aren’t religious, and I implore you to not follow this route in founding your “open” if you will, society.
I do believe that you are on the right track in as much as considering the possibilities and implications that could follow what you decide to do. This will be important to people that want to become a part of your society. If you found your society based on a certain religion’s principles, but allow for openness of other practicing religions to occur there at the same time, I wouldn’t have a problem living there. After all, I might not have any beliefs, but that has never stopped me from being a good person throughout my life and treating others fairly, and not going against socially acceptable standards. So I don’t follow the lines about people that aren’t religious, need a religion to keep them on track to be able to give them guidance to be good people in the world around them.
Oh, and I hope this thread doesn’t end up like the secular society one, where arguments against religious beliefs start up. Is it that hard to accept that everyone has their own beliefs that they think is right, and that they are wasting their time arguing against someone else’s religious beliefs. Voicing your beliefs is fine, but I think it is a waste of time to go back and forth against each other, and instead focus on adding content to the discussion rather than distraction. Remember….true, and unbiased tolerance in the key.November 11, 2009 at 7:24 am #8613
Q1. “As I volunteer to spend my time, effort and money in order to advance the cause of seasteading would anybody join me ?”
Q2. “Would you like to see any responsabilities of my part regarding matters of belief ?”
A1. It all depends of what you want to do. You have been gone for a while…. What’s the plan?
A2. If “belief” was meant as in religious belief, than I would expect you to be tolerant towards all of them. If “belief” was meant as in “the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true“, than I would expect you to do nothing about it, since it will really be a waste of your time.:-)
OctavianNovember 11, 2009 at 4:16 pm #8620
Thank you both for the responses of support and encouragement.
To Sky I would only remark that choosing not to follow any belief system is a belief unto itself and judging by your comments it seems like an decision you put time and thought into. I’m not sure how I would revise my statement to reflect my thoughts and feelings as the very nature of religion and belief is a complicated multi-faceted topic that best belongs on another thread or no thread at all. I will say this though: Everyone has a belief, it is our worldview, the glasses through which we observe the world with and each society teaches a single belief even if many beliefs are present.
To my old friend Octavian I would say, “Good to see you again!” Question 1 will be refined slowly over the next two months and should be directed at the SO:B thread as my intentions are to continue in that project. Question 2 is closer to my original question. Another way of putting it would be: How will my own beliefs impact the society I am creating in a tangible form that can be outlined on paper? Sure, my beliefs will have an impact there because my beliefs have an impact where I am currently and all of us will affect each other. Those aspects of my belief that deal with my responsibilities to God as a leader of people need to be defined and expressed.
Otherwise, years from now I could lose my mind and begin training anti-seastead terrorists to take down other people’s floating homes using the foundations we build today. Do I think that could happen? No, of course not. Like the founding fathers I wish to insure societies safety from ourselves, especially those of us who have power and control as the temptation to mis-use these priviledges is great.
Support and positive feedback are helpful. What I am really looking for is other nation building resources of any kind that would help me safely merge my own faith with the free society I wish to create. Suggestions along those lines are welcome and much needed.
-JasonNovember 11, 2009 at 7:48 pm #8628
and the creation theory presented in the book of Genesis.
Why not the other creation myths as well?November 11, 2009 at 8:45 pm #8631
PJ and others
Th plans of mice and men…
No plan is perfect as no man is perfect. They all require work and knowledge, and sacrifice and adaptability. Having asked the question, I would say that you are an individual who likes to wiegh options before making a decision. No problem with that… “know thy enemy” The enemies of Seasteading will be many but the biggest threat we will face is the inability of a group to form a united front against others, for whatever reason. Your question, I think, is more geared toward that. By having people who at least agree to live according a set of moral codes or ethical beliefs will allow them to agree how to live and work together.
For an answer I would propose that all rights, responsibilities and restrictions be outlined in contracts drawn up before you allow anyone to become a member of your steading. Include stiff penalties for those that break contract and enforce the clauses vigorously. As long as the restrictions are not too onorous and the responsibilities are reasonable you should not have a problem from those people that choose to follow you.
As for the societal system… I would suggest one built on education. Education, not just for children, but throughout life. Education, uncomplicated by “agendas” or programs of disinformation.
An educated public will help in all aspects of any society, especially small communities. And, of course, this is sort of what you were describing when you said that you teach both the evolutionary and creationist ideas to your daughters.
Thank youNovember 14, 2009 at 5:17 am #8640
Good point John. But lets make our imperfections a friend rather then an enamy. If one says, ” I’m not ready. I wont go.” than one will never go because nobody is ever ready. We will not solve mankind problems by seasteading, but maybe we will solve ours,…And if we do that, we will set an example. If we dont, at least we tried and we will set another example.
I belive that our own belief manifested thru action will impact society in such a tangible way that cannot be outline on paper, PJ…And nobody can tell me I am wrong, because I do hold that as true. With that in mind, I am trying to do more and wonder less. Wondering leads to confusion, confusion leads to indecision, indecision leads to lack of confidence and lack of confidence leads to failure. Imperfect as it might be I am standing confident on seasteading. Thats how I’m gonna roll.
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