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Floating Drydock to start Seasteading

Home Forums Archive Infrastructure Floating Drydock to start Seasteading

This topic contains 31 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Sam7 Sam7 3 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)
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  • #11008

    Farmer, a good point you bring up here. Ask for permit is NOT always the best way to get it done. In fact you should have a clear and acertive strategy what you ask for permit for and what not.

    Peter Thiel said that if he would have asked the “Banking System” if they allow him to implement “internet banking – paypal style” and push traditional banks out of business – paypal would not exist.

    What is your permit tactics frequently depends on the country you are working with.

    In my case i made a private submarine in AUSTRIA . Austria has a constitution law that simply forbids to build “SUBMARINES” (it was written by the british into austrias post war constitution to avoid future u-boat threats to the british islands) – so my permit tactics was NOT to ask for permit to build a “submarine” – i just renamed the object from “submarine” to “electric driven watertoy below 9m” took it blissfully to water and nobody bothered me further – in AUSTRIA.

    Now i am building a 200ton submarine hull in COLOMBIA – if i would do it with my austrian permit tactics i would infract a law that could bring me some 15 years in jail. – Colombia is home to the famous semisubmersibles that have special freight – this is a complete different situation than the one that exists in Austria. If you build a hull in a hideaway the law just assumes that you are part of the trade the law is made to facilitate police interdiction not to facilitate things for private submarine yacht builders. On the other hand if you ask for a permit – you get it without problems – the fact that you ask for permit is taken as a prove that you are NOT part of the trade.

    To bring it to the point 2 countries you can build submarines in both of them – although the law appeaently forbids it – but you must be on the right permit tactics in the right country – or you can trigger MAYOR problems including going to jail for decades.

    The baseline is that there is no “application style” that works everywhere – a solid project management is needed to get it right and pull it off. The situation differes 100% from one spot to another. Selecting the right tactics on the right spot is PARAMOUNT.

    Doing something new always creates friction points with estabishment – have a good tactics how to handle that friction points. Building codes can mean everything and create a total project block at a city waterfront and mean nothing a few miles up the coast where a “local mayor goodwill ” simply skips them.

    Freedom does not start outside EEZ it starts with playing your cards smart locally. I would dare to say that if you play it smart you can float out a city almost everywhere – just don´t take NO as an answer.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11071
    Profile photo of sda1950
    sda1950
    Participant

    Ocean,

    Is the hugh cost of “A full service marina parked about 25 miles (so the locals don’t get upset) off shore of a major city (i.e. Miami)” caused by the “25 miles”, the “Commercial” part, “Very large yachts and boats which or hard to find dockage”, all of the above, or ? ? I had a similar idea and would like to know where the cost jump comes from.

    Steve

    #11078
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    The megayachts have plenty of dockage around Fort Laudardale and Miami. There is no shortage of docks or facilities, but of megayachts…Regardless, were the cost jump is? First, construction. If you want to start with a facility for lets say 6 megayachts, and lets consider a megayacht > then 100′ LOA, you need @ least 600 ft of dockage. For the sake of the argument, lets say that your marina-seastead will be a hexagon and its sides will be the docks @ 100′ each. We are looking @ 26,000.00 sq.ft. (the example using a hexagon really sucks from the prospective that there will be no protection from the elements when the yachts are dock along the sides, but lets just overlook that,..). Now, the whole structure will have to be @ least 6′ high, and solid. Basically we are talking about a “mini” megafloat, with a volume of 156,000.00 cubic feet. Thats big. Add all the fuel tanks, water tanks, holding tanks, generators to produce power, facilities.

    Then its the maintenance and supplying it 25 nm offshore. Which will cost a fortune. You might want to provide a ferry service to shore, another huge expense. In the end after spending millions, you will have to charge double or triple per ft for dockage, compared to any Fort Lauderdale or Miami marina. Your operating costs will dictate that. No way around it. Now, this people who own big yachts, thay do have money, but that doesnt mean that they are gonna waste it. They will rather sail another 25nm into Miami and dock @ the Municipal Marina for half of what you are charging. From there, its a 2 blocks walk to Ocean Blvd, South Beach, with word class restaurants and entertainment. Can you compete? I dont think so. (Pls dont kill the messenger :-)

    #11084

    Ocean, i have o agree with you – it will probably not work well in areas where you have plenty of alternatives nearby. But it would work good in south america where docking and especially dry-docking is hard to get. I also agree to your argument that nobody will dock a ship whith no protection in open ocean in a hurricane zone. So that kind of dock must be combined with large calm water features like the bay of cartagena or the bay of maracaibo, and installed in areas outside the hurricane zone.

    25nm offshore is not a place of first choice – it is better to be “just offshore” where you have deep water access but short shuttle and material transport routes. In the oceanic suburbs instead of far offshore. For example this floating concrete shell flat float beauty is attending submarines but stays still connected to land. I work just as a land based facility at the same cost and transport structure. It could be offshore – but this is not first choice.

    #11204
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Not nuch has been said about continuing hull maintenance and repairs… A Floating Dry-Dock would be essential for in a large community of seasteads… So, a place to build ‘em, then repair and maintain ‘em will be important.

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #11632

    Afloat repair may possibly be a services that is going to have a new customer segment (beside ships and boats) the industry is considering and implementing floating factories from nuclear energy plants built in russia on a big flat raft and shipped over the high seas to indonesia, to SABmiller considering seriously building floating breweries to follow resources and demand.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12151
    Profile photo of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Farmer wrote:

    In general I think the mindset that our parents worked so hard to instill in us: be a good citizen, will not serve us here.

    to be a good citizen of a totalitarian state.

    Take Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper’s advice “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission”

    ouk emou alla tou logou akousantas homologein sophon estin hen

    #12152

    Farmer wrote:

    In general I think the mindset that our parents worked so hard to instill in us: be a good citizen, will not serve us here.

    Altaica wrote:
    Take Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper’s advice “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission”

    I fear it will not be a question of choice to apply or not to the existing rule sets.

    New things always have a tendency to enter in friction with existing rules and frames – which are made for the existing things. It would not have been possible to establish paypal within the existing banking rules, it is not possible to apply publishing rules to internet hyperlinks and websites, it will not be possible to apply rule sets made for ships and peaceful come along of land nations and their transport sistem to sea nations.

    I would postulate that new things just have a natural tendency to break old frames – this is exactly why seasteading is a political theme in first place.

    New things normally operate in a rule free space – until the need to regulate comes up from the practice – if that happens new rules that include the new developments are made.

    In practice the new development comes first and the ruling and law frames come (decades) later.

    When you ask for a permit you create basicly a administrative dilemma – you ask for something that does not exist – the only administrative feasible way to process your request is a negative.

    So IF you ask for a permit NEVER ask for a permit for something that is not mentioned in the rule book – especially don´t ask for a “floating festival” – ask for a boating event. Do not ask for a permit for a seastead ask for a permit for a floating dock or a barge.

    Most of all have a proyect implementation plan that turns the “natural flow of things on the permit front” in your favour – not against you.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12175
    Profile photo of Altaica
    Altaica
    Participant

    Ellmer where did you study sociology? The University of Truthiness located in your gut?

    Altaica wrote:

    Take Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper’s advice “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission”

    I fear it will not be a question of choice to apply or not to the existing rule sets.

    When you ask for a permit you create basicly a administrative dilemma – you ask for something that does not exist – the only administrative feasible way to process your request is a negative.

    So IF you ask for a permit NEVER ask for a permit for something that is not mentioned in the rule book – especially don´t ask for a “floating festival” – ask for a boating event. Do not ask for a permit for a seastead ask for a permit for a floating dock or a barge.

    Most of all have a proyect implementation plan that turns the “natural flow of things on the permit front” in your favour – not against you.

    [/quote]

    Wow it almost as if you skimmed the first chaptor of a textbook of deviance. Why don’t you try reading the whole thing?

    I suggest Delos H. Kelly’s Deviant Behavior: A Text-Reader in the Sociology of Deviance

    I fear it will not be a question of choice to apply or not to the existing rule sets.

    New things always have a tendency to enter in friction with existing rules and frames – which are made for the existing things. It would not have been possible to establish paypal within the existing banking rules, it is not possible to apply publishing rules to internet hyperlinks and websites, it will not be possible to apply rule sets made for ships and peaceful come along of land nations and their transport sistem to sea nations.

    Some of us have problems bigger than trying something new.

    Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei(NSDAP) didn’t outlaw Judaism because it was new thing. Would you tells the jews “Well you deserve to be sent to the Konzentrationslager, if you didn’t wont to go there you shouldn’t have violated the laws forbiting Judaism”

    The NSDAP were real equette nazis they didn’t do anything “except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.”

    Are you thinking of says, “That’s not a fair comparision. NSDAP was persocuting people for being born of the jewish race. Sure we inflect punishment on people, but only retaliation for injuries or wrongs, and for deterrence. And yes we may deprived people of their liberty with detention, even excution for the most serious cases, but we do it not getred of those people we do it only to protect our society from their deviant behaviors

    As Heinsohn stated that NSDAP wanted to destroy “the hardware – Jewish men, women and children – to destroy the software – the Jewish code of ethics.” Indeed, several years before the publication of Mein Kampf, the author stated that: “the influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst.”

    So you see they too were only “protecting society from deviant behaviors”

    Tit for tat less tit tit, ax

    #12180
    Profile photo of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    If you damned off a natural cove/lagoon you could pump the water out of it using windmills/solar panels driving pumps, build a concrete ship, and then get some hydroelectric power from the process of filling the lagoon back in.

    You’d need a series of locks to get the boat out past the damn.

    #12182

    tusavision wrote:

    If you damned off a natural cove/lagoon you could pump the water …

    That would be a graving dock

    This kind of docks is used to float out oil platform baseplates and other seastead sized industrial structures like bridge caissions that frequently do not fit into classic ship docks in form and size.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12183
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    A floating drydock avoids the necessity of buying realestate that is under total scrutiny, all the time. If you want to try something different, don’t do it where everyone can see it and tell you ‘why’ it ‘won’t work.’ In the mean time, a floating drydock is also available for use when a craft needs one for maintenance, inspection and/or repairs. They have been used since before WW1 and will continue to be used. Why not get one and go into business? When it’s in use, it’s rented, when it’s not in use, it can be anchored and pretty much left alone, unless a storm is coming and it needs to be moved… Get several to allow use for a number of projects that can be at different stages of developement…Get one big enough for a number of projects, make provision that all work in coordinated effort to get projects floating withing a specific time-frame, get that batch done, save the frames to be re-used on similar projects, float the new hulls, tie them off and start the next batch, which you’ve been actively recruiting for, while there is a batch being made…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #12177

    Altaica wrote:
    … “That’s not a fair comparision…

    …ahm not a helpful and well fitting one… but the basic ideas of “rule sets change when times and political climate changes” is right. From a project management oriented point of view, you have to deal with that.

    The actitude of “rules do not apply to me” is not helpful, and the actitude “any rule is written is stone for ever” -. is not helpful either.

    In first case you end in jail in second you end up with a seastead population dressed in life vests and survival suits…and a construction plan filing 100 years for “class approval”.

    So have a good plan how to navigate to steer your proyect free of both.

    #12201
    Profile photo of Farmer
    Farmer
    Participant

    My original idea of a full service marina located offshore of a major city servicing pleasure craft appealed to me only because I wasted my youth in the hospitality industry and know the profit margins are high.
    Of course the commercial fishermen and other pros that a floating dry-dock would serve care only about the bottom line but I do not see why fuel (for example) would be more expensive there than on shore. We avoid taxes, import tariffs and a lot of complications if we can just get a tanker to stop by our place before they deliver the bulk of their cargo to the mainland we might even be able to undercut the less convenient refueling available onshore. It is one of the important limitations on commercial fishermen that they have a designated “season” for each type of catch. To save them a trip back to land for refueling or repairs during that season could mean a lot of money for them.
    So I see two possibilities: A) The party barge w/ fuel pump and beer on tap and B) The floating “truck stop” that serves the fishing industry. Both could take advantage of not paying a government taxes and both could save money by offering opportunity to skilled workers from anywhere on the globe.
    So, both A and B pay a little more for a new fuel pump or fresh tomatoes to go on the burgers and both pay a little less for diesel and labor.
    As a guy whose paycheck depends on staying under budget I like the way this is looking.
    #12208
    Profile photo of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Have to be outside the economic zone (EEZ), to reduce those taxes, at which point, most pleasure craft don’t have the fuel to get there…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)

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