Floating Drydock to start Seasteading
July 28, 2010 at 2:41 pm #1307
The idea to start Seasteading with a floating Drydock that produces modules that can be rafted up on the water was brought up in one of the other forums.
I find this “discussion worthy” because it could work as a business.
Let me hear your thoughts.July 28, 2010 at 4:17 pm #10955
that was JLF and I! SEE:< http://commercial.apolloduck.com/listings.phtml?cid=2>July 28, 2010 at 7:17 pm #10959
Thanks for the link wohl1917, a basic seasteading module will probably have to be smaller than a normal ship as discussed in the concrete shell seasteading thread due to budget reasons. The size of a family house or a apartment would be the best size to start with.
This means the drydock to build those modules should have a similar size.
You would probably want a additional section or platform to live on and host worker quarters, showers, etc…
Fact is once you have your dock you can engage in all kind of business from yacht and boat services to seastead module building – means you have a solid economic base out on the water and you have a already tested business model that can be used for seasteading with only small adaptions – no need to reinvent the wheel.
The seasteading platforms you build in the drydock could look that way:
Those element can be sold to a wide variety of customers – from floating house builders to oceanside marina developments, – raft some of them up to a bigger platform with pretension cast connections and you soon have a floating community.
The point is : The engineering for doing so is already solved. What we need is to come up with a real world option that offers a feasibility of living on the water to average city housing cost – means we need to build the base modules at a cost per squaremeter that matches existing cost per squaremeter cost in major cities.July 29, 2010 at 4:28 am #10960
I think that there are few problems with the floating dry dock. In general, floating dry docks are used for repairs, construction and launching BIG ships. If a SFS, or a Module is to be build, it will be small. As we talked in different forums it is my understanding that somehow it was agreed @ a LOA somewhere between 30′-60′ for a module. If this the case, a FDD is not needed for the modules construction. Then why invest in a FDD? Also, a FDD if bought has to be “kept” somewhere. Usually docked. That WILL cost a lots of money.
But lets say a FDD will be bought. Living quarters will be add for the working crew. The homework will be done in terms of planning for the modules construction, marketing, sales, etc. But all of it will be just “projections”. Nothing is guaranteed. We will be competing in the houseboating market, basically. Can our Modules compete in this market? Will they sell like hotcakes? I do have big reservations about it.
How and where to start seasteading IS the million dollar question! But maybe we are looking in the wrong direction to start as a business. Maybe we shud start as an experiment researching the business potential of seasteading. A Seasteading Lab if you wish. Small, up to 100′ LOA (3-4 modules rafted up) and up to 20-25 crew. Build and operated by some of us who will volunteer time and funds for this venture.The initial investment will be small and affordable. In few years, the lessons learned and the experiences gathered on this Lab will become valuable tools in shaping a future, bigger seasteading venture.July 29, 2010 at 6:05 pm #10961
Could there be a market for repairs in the high seas?July 30, 2010 at 2:47 pm #10962
Boats get rented by the day. If you can repair one without having to have it deviate much from its course, you can easily score a “convenience fee” of 50% of the daily cost, in addtion to standard costs of repair.
There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Each to his fate.July 30, 2010 at 7:37 pm #10965
One thing about a floating dry dock is the ability to take supplies to it, by barge… Think of it as awork space that allows you to build what you want, where you want it, in this case, off the coast. Anchoring in 300-1000 ft. of water is relatively easy… No harbor/docking fees 1/4 mile off the coast…
The efficiency of it is that seasteads come in many sizes. Many of the proposed designs are under 80 ft. in any given direction… If a larger one is available and bought, do 2 or more at a time. Extra room isn’t wasted space, it’s available space… You need tools, frames, access to supplies, space to do the construction, etc. to build in any form. With a Floating Dry Dock, the space will get used, one way or another and unused space will get used…
Never be afraid to try something new…
Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.July 30, 2010 at 9:13 pm #10967
There might be ” No harbor/docking fees 1/4 mile off the coast…”. But there WILL BE shipping costs for EVERITHING that you need on that floating dry dock. And the shipping fees might be higher then your docking fees,…Another problem with building on the water is that you might not even get a permit to do so. The boat building and repair business is heavily regulated by the EPA, on shore. Imagine what they can ask from you while building on the water. Another problem will be insurance. Your premiums will skyrocket. And without insurance there is no business. I personally wouldnt haul out in a yard that is not covered. What if my boat is falling of the stands? etc,..And most of the boatowners wont. Another “problem” is that ports, harbors, boatyards are like mafia, sort of speaking. You gonna compete against a bunch of good old boys that all now each other and have been doing business together for generations? Hmmmm.July 31, 2010 at 2:14 am #10968
At the end “shipyard grade deep water access” is a very limited resource on most coast lines. Waterfront and beach space is the most regulated and most competed space in all countries. On the other hand the waterspace a mile out is almost not regulated in most countries. This can turn a waterbased business model into a advantage instead of a disadvantage. Especially if you have big natural calm and hurricane save waterspace feature like the Bay of Maracaibo or the Bay of Cartagena and a lot of room to grow.
If a local maf is blocking your business – just float it in front of another village that welcomes the jobs you bring to the area. As always when you do something new there is a “friction potential with establishment” but if you choose the location well and play your cards smart it should be well worth a try.August 2, 2010 at 4:25 am #10975
There might be ” No harbor/docking fees 1/4 mile off the coast…”. But there WILL BE shipping costs for EVERITHING that you need on that floating dry dock. And the shipping fees might be higher then your docking fees,…Another problem with building on the water is that you might not even get a permit to do so. The boat building and repair business is heavily regulated by the EPA, on shore. Imagine what they can ask from you while building on the water. Another problem will be insurance. Your premiums will skyrocket. And without insurance there is no business. I personally wouldnt haul out in a yard that is not covered. What if my boat is falling of the stands? etc,..And most of the boatowners wont. Another “problem” is that ports, harbors, boatyards are like mafia, sort of speaking. You gonna compete against a bunch of good old boys that all now each other and have been doing business together for generations? Hmmmm.
However, they won’t want to work on ferro-cement, since they don’t have much use for it… Very few skilled hands doing ferro… So, the tug-pilot is only too happy to ferry the materials at a modest price, so he can keep joking about the idjits trying to make floating rocks. Suppliers have no problem selling to whoever is buying… Finding someone that can engineer the hulls, so the plans are approved, is the first step in building. Yes, it’s going to take permits, but it will on land, at which point you’re competing for land and a launch-point with a channel/canal for whatever you build, then you need the ramps and docks to deal with transferring and supplying the new vessel…
Never be afraid to try something new…
Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.August 2, 2010 at 3:46 pm #10976
To speak about concrete shells in the 20m size range and the 200 ton weight range – the “land asociated cost” like shipyard rent, cost of moving the finished shell over land, cost of solving “land based third party entanglement issues”, always is higher than the total building cost of the shell itself (materials and labor cost) so building on the water would not be a disadvantage but a mayor advantage.
This changes if you make the modules very small (transportable in truck). So you can “launch” the modules with less “entanglement” and “launch site requirements” and can choose from a greater variety of launch sites.
On the other hand for structures bigger than 200 tons launching from land becomes even more complicated as you depend 100% from a preexistant shipyard infrastructure (launch rails winches slipway etc…) and a cooperative behavior of the shipyard management. To make this happen you have to calculate with “land based entanglement costs” triplicating your hull building costs.
In other words the bigger the structure the more desireable is it to build it “out on the water”.
Once the structure exceeds a certain (shipyard handling) size – building it on the water is the ONLY existing option.
Concrete shell structure 18m 200ton “land handling cost” is greater than “raw hull building cost”.
giant concrete shell structure in oil/gas industry – water based building is the ONLY viable option.
European Submarine Structures ABAugust 2, 2010 at 11:12 pm #10979
FarmerParticipantA full service marina parked about 25 miles (so the locals don’t get upset) off shore of a major city (i.e. Miami)It could serve three distinct client bases:1) Very large yachts and boats which or hard to find dockage for because of their size (Also very expensive to dock because they are charged by the foot.)2) People who want to live aboard their boats. (many marinas prohibit this)3) Tourists to a main seastead nearby,A high-speed ferry could be set up that would shunt passengers back and forth between the mainland and the marina. (If you rent from us and live there maybe a few ferry trips are included in your dockage fee.)One of the things that made me think about this was the wooden boat rescue websiteThey have listing full of free boats that people can’t afford to keep. If a floating dry-dock had a little cheap labor they could make a killing restoring these things many of which are not in bad shape to start with.We would start with a sea-savvy “population” and make our living off of traditional marine industry while we develop and refine our new technologies.We would need to be self insured but untill we get million dollar boats parked there that is not such a big issue.The infrastructure needed to start is a floating breakwater, floating docks and the floating dry-dock + machine shop.Frankly, those are all stock items you could order online tonight (or build in-house for 5% of the cost)August 3, 2010 at 6:27 am #10983
“A full service marina parked about 25 miles (so the locals don’t get upset) off shore of a major city (i.e. Miami)It could serve three distinct client bases:1) Very large yachts and boats which or hard to find dockage for because of their size (Also very expensive to dock because they are charged by the foot.)2) People who want to live aboard their boats. (many marinas prohibit this)3) Tourists to a main seastead nearby,A high-speed ferry could be set up that would shunt passengers back and forth between the mainland and the marina. (If you rent from us and live there maybe a few ferry trips are included in your dockage fee.)”Sound pretty good on paper. But in order to do all that, you need big bucks. I mean tenth of millions. This cannot be backyard built staff, because Coast Guard will give you a “new boat” inspection. (and home made won’t cut it). It has to be up to standards since you are going to be comercial.Since you mentioned the Miami area, a smaller version of what you are talking about (a marina-seastead) might work nice in the Biscayne Bay, moored somewhere between Key Biscayne and Coral Gables, off the Intercoastal Waterway. (check it on Google Earth). A small seastead with docking facilities (for small boats, up to 30′-35′), with a litlle tiki-bar, palm trees, a small man-made beach, a fuel dock, would do good there or further down in the Keys. It will be a weekend destination for the boaters in the area, a stop for fuel, fresh water, cold bruskies, and cheeseburgers (in paradise:-) for the south bound boats. It will still have to be inspected by the Coasties but since smaller, it will be ok. But when you are talking about docking big boats for an extended period of time, its a different ballgame.August 4, 2010 at 1:15 am #10999
The finance model is palm in dubai – they managed it to sell dozends of “small artificial sandbanks” as “private islands” – so one person just needs to finance one island – not the whole development. It would just be selling “floating islands” instead of “sandbanks” …
Should be easier to sell as you get the additional advantage of mobility, can build it at less cost, and raft it up into a “marina development” easier as you can move huge concrete shell elements for the breakwater on the watersurface.
In general building “on the water” is much less regulated than building on the beachfront – i am not sure about Miami – would be better outside hurricane zones and supported by natural calm water features in caribbean ambient.
European Submarine Structures ABAugust 4, 2010 at 11:22 pm #11007
In general I think the mindset that our parents worked so hard to instill in us: be a good citizen, will not serve us here.
If we are to see ourselves as pioneers and possibly even as seditionists then we have to break the habit of filing for permits, purchasing insurance and generally asking someone permission before we do anything.
I am not advocating a crime spree of building code violations just pointing out that the political independence we are seeking will not be achieved by filling out the correct forms at city hall.
Conclusion: for our purposes building in the water may be the only option for any sized structure.
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