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Floating Breakwater feasibility

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Floating Breakwater feasibility

This topic contains 39 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of wohl1917 wohl1917 3 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 10 posts - 31 through 40 (of 40 total)
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  • #12157
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Matt wrote:

    Why does the breakwater need to be anchored to the seabed?

    With a breakwater design there would be one big (probably segmented) fixed structure around a lot of lagoon real estate.

    Instead of positioninig the seastead relative to the submerged landmass, the internal RE units would be positioned relative to the breakwater, maybe with a network of tension/compression links. If this looks too much of a net, I remind you it could be only partially that way, symbolizing the more “seadentary” units, while houseboats, etc could remain off the grid but within the lagoon. Whe the entire lagoon becomes links it means it has saturated and it’s time to build more, and evaluate the experience. It could define a cycle.

    The whole seastead would minimize interaction with waves by being a massive concrete ring moving gently. Taking advantage of currents (throug switchable keels), winds (sails), and harnessed energy too costy to store (?), could a system of propulsion be developed to mantain a breakwater seastead stationary?

    Why does it have to be stationary anyway? I’m not advocating the use of the oceanic gyres, but maybe a combination in which the seasted moves just enough to avoid bad conditions, select climate and get closer or farther from different countries.

    Sounds reasonable to me.

    Wave energy isn’t perpetual motion. You have enough of these seasnakes rubber banded in formation and the waves will run out of steam. If the waves are big enough to where that isn’t viable, make like a turtle, pull in to your shell and dive.

    Leave a small float on the surface with your radio transciever and you can dangle at the bottom of your hydraulic chandelier sipping on merlot while stealing power from neptune.

    We’ll call this escape plan “going kelp”.

    #12158
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    anchor force is extremly low (1kp) when it floats deeploaded.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    What was the sea state during that experiment?

    It was not a single experiment – the hull stayed there anchored for years during the nightiees – i had a mooring rig that indicated the forces on the rig with a buoy that would go under as soon as forces overpass 5 kp – a status that i never happened nor was any close to happen – what surprised me.

    The storms that i experienced during those years where sufficiently severe to break trees and the waves sufficiently hazardous to make 30 foot sailing yachts (of the open ocean capeable type) call SOS while i had my coffee cup still standing on the table. This was the case in both states submerged and surfaced on the anchor place.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    My guess is that if your 20-ton submarine were in 2-3m waves, floating high enough so that there was no overwash, you would see significant increases in the force on the anchor rig.

    I will not dismiss the “significant increase” as the buoy was designed to go under at 5kp it is possible that the force difference is 0.5 kp 90% deeploaded and close to 3kp floating only 50% deeploaded – this would still be a “signifficant increase”. On the other hand we are still quite far away from theocal possible 20.0000 kp force which is anchor rig forces in the “order of structure weight”.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    Same goes for both Nkossa and Adriatic LNG. I don’t have enough information on their mooring systems to comment, or on the highest seastate either has had to endure.

    You are right we don’t have the details – what we have is fotos of their mooring sistem – and those fotos tell me two things – those structures are anchored with no bow pointing against the waves, and their anchor sistem is not designed to hold anything near structure weight… we need to investigate.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    your information further solidifies my belief that a caisson-style floating breakwater is a no-go, and we’ll have to rely on something else.

    Dismiss caisson-style seasteads and breakwaters is possibly premature – especially as oil/gas industry is moving EXACTLY in that direction (probably for good reasons – cost efficiency most bang for the bug)

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    Now if we can find a seamount sitting in international waters that has the same metocean profile as 60km off the Congan coast then we are in business.

    I suggest to create a “artificial seamount” that provides the equivalent of “shallow anchorpoint” for our structures with a tendon anchor buoy – as described – in the seaarea that is convenient for business reasons.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    [/quote]

    This sounds viable as well.

    If you plan on running a cocaine casino: anchors are a liability.

    If you’re catering to legitimate industry in or near EEZs, seamounts seem more attractive.

    #12163
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    Floating breakwater discussion is back again -

    Let me post a few thesis for discussion:

    1) Floating breakwaters in open ocean are possible.

    2) Connections between floating breakwaters in open ocean are possible.

    3) A breakwater lagoon is the most simple and cost effective way to allow a come together of ships, boats, houseboats, floating islands, in open sea.

    Is any of those points still in discussion? – why?

    Only question is what you mean by connections in #2. Clearly a rope or any kind of flexible connection could be made to work. If you tried to do a rigid connection then the forces on it and the breakwater could easily be enough to break something.

    Note that there is a wiki page on breakwaters that people should feel free to update:

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Breakwater_Seastead

    And I have a design idea with pictures and even a model tested in the ocean:

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/User:Vincecate/Tension_circle_marina

    #12164
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Connections are more difficult than they appear on the surface due to corrosion and the need for the connections to expand/contract.

    Car tire chain mail seems to be the industry standard for a reason, both cost and function.

    #12166
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    So i would postulate the ring seastead design a proven design that requires no engineering leap – just repeating what has been done already.

    The floating concrete structures that are out in the north sea for several decades in service of the oil/gas industy some of them anchored in great depth with the mentioned methods, are designed for 30m waves which is a quite “harsh marine environment” and they do all surprisingly fine.

    A seastead in the doldrums would be a “easy case” compared to them. Many of them also feature crew quaters so they are seasteads in a certain way already…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    Thanks for the valuable input as always. Besides all the ranting and healthy discussion on this site and elsewhere, would you then think that the only thing seasteading needs is a profitable and ordered business?

    I also believe the technical capabilities are there. Not because I’m an expert or know Z about the subject, but because I already see people living at sea in all degrees of legality, from fishermen serviced by other fishing vessels (unfortunate), to oil rigs as you point out and cruise-ships.

    With a floating breakwater in international waters a haven, and I assume deep water harbour, would be created. But the first thing one thinks when investing is the law, and this would be literally outside the law, so it takes not an engineering, but another kind of leap.

    With all the rampant corruption, and accepted “way of doing business” and under the table liberties already in place in civilized countries I wonder if there will be a market for a Zona Franca / Porto Libero in the middle of nowhere (it should be in the middle of a heavy shiplane, preferably a leisure lane such as the Caribbean). On the other hand there was no intrinsic demand for a Singapore, but the vision of one great man, and then of another one still among us, made it exist the way it does – as an exception.

    #12159

    Matt wrote:

    ….The whole seastead would minimize interaction with waves by being a massive concrete ring moving gently…

    The design of a floating city protected by breakwaters has been suggested in many forms. (ring, plate, seastar, etc…) It has also been floated out in giant industrial structures in form of the rion-antirion bridge pylons, and it is also a classic design principe for floating marina installations all over the world.

    what comes probably closest are the waterworld film set and the ekofisk storage tank.

    The waterworld filmset was built in 6 pieces and set up in the high seas off Hawaii – after filming the whole seastead was towed over the pacific to San Diego.

    The ekofisk storage tank is a oil storage installation that features a outer breakwater wall to protect storage tanks in the center. Below the building and floating out of the segments. This structure is working just fine for decades.

    So i would postulate the ring seastead design a proven design that requires no engineering leap – just repeating what has been done already.

    The floating concrete structures that are out in the north sea for several decades in service of the oil/gas industy some of them anchored in great depth with the mentioned methods, are designed for 30m waves which is a quite “harsh marine environment” and they do all surprisingly fine.

    A seastead in the doldrums would be a “easy case” compared to them. Many of them also feature crew quaters so they are seasteads in a certain way already…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12190

    Matt wrote:
    …would you then think that the only thing seasteading needs is a profitable and ordered business?

    I would think any human settlement no matter if on land or at sea needs a business. As long as the business is worth it – the technical difficulty of establishing settlement will be solved. Human history is full of settlements in hostile ambients this ranges from settlements hammered in pure rock to settlements established in plain desert, in deep frozen ice, on andinean mountain tops, in plain jungle, etc… floating out seems to be a mild case on the settlement harschness scale.

    So why has it not been done yet on massive scale – because except oil and transport there has no massive business been taking place on the oceans that requires settlements. Technology and globalization are the game changers.

    Matt wrote:
    But the first thing one thinks when investing is the law..

    Why? – People implement new things because there is a need for them – not because there is a “legal situation” about them. There is obviously no legislation about seasteading – how could there be? Why should there be a legislation about something that does not exist? – so what is the headache? – a few rules that where written with ships and land nations in mind ? – i understand that in THEORY you can imagine all kind of legal entanglements – but i would see it a relative easy project management task. Just make sure that your seastead is a plus for your neighbors instead of being a problem – thats it.

    Matt wrote:
    I wonder if there will be a market for a Zona Franca / Porto Libero in the middle of nowhere

    I would not suggest a seastead location in the middle of nowhere – on contrary i would place a seastead in the middle of a good business plan and a good business location – the business plan is the most important thing of all – cities that run out of business convert to ghost towns – even on land.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12191
    Avatar of Matt
    Matt
    Participant

    If we compare these two maps, 2010 Shipping Lanes, and 2007 Piracy incidents, we can get a good idea of where most economic (legal and illegal) activity is concentrated around: both around the bottlenecks and near calm equatorial waters where unseaworthy pirate vessels can operate.

    Piracy in this day and age is basically considered an indicator of unemployed fishermen, opportunity (imagine a seastead(s) rendering safe a dangerous strait), and concentration of sea traffic. It is also an indicator of weak land based governments. The advantage of this is debatable but I suspect it’s a plus (specially since the Mediterranean Baltic and even CAribbean fall mostly under EEZs.

    figure1a

    In a Venn Diagram: Doldrums + Shipping Lane intersections + Pirate acitvity =

    East Pacific:

    - Off California

    - Southwest of Panama, in between Galapagos, Cocos and Malpelo. I believe this might be the best location.

    CarteLocal.gif

    West Indian:

    - Off the Gulf of Aden, in cooperation with Puntland dwellers.

    - Arabian Sea but on the high seas in between Socotra and Sri Lanka.

    South Atlantic: Advantage: no cyclones

    - East of Pernambuco (NE tip of Brazil) or off Rio – Vitoria (North of wavy Catarina Gulf) near the northernmost oil basin.

    - Gulf of Guinea, or probably south of Liberia.

    East Asia or West Pacific seems “taken” by EEZs.

    North Atlantic remains the ideal candidate, but the climate doesn’t help. Caribbean protected waters are taken. Only chance, West of Gibraltar as proposed.

    Wil: You know a thing or two about floating concrete. Do you think Patri’s Aikido Design can be scalable? Does it have to be an annulus? Could it consist of several blocks of breakwater with the beach-shape suggested, but easily expandable by attaching new cells while leaving the points of the enclosed space open?

    -

    #12197

    Costs of floating breakwaters – economic feasibility – the TSI viewpoint on breakwaters see here: engineering blog

    Modular Island Design with Breakwaters – see here

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12338
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    Dude, you come up with the BEST maps!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

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