Did any of you think about where you are building
August 17, 2011 at 3:54 pm #1587
First off think where you are building; it is on an ocean so it is not rocket science… You need to think about the science of the ocean. After I read a lot of these things I can see that no one is paying attention to the the fact you are on a ocean. You all see these pretty pictures of these cities on calm seas with boats all around… Okay welcome to reality; you are now on the sea and the small waves would crush the boat on the bottom of that low platform you have and damage your city… Second you need to put this higher up then you are depicting; why do you think oil rigs are so high up? That is right without land to slow winds; the storms would rip it apart. The half dome idea is a good start to deflect a lot of rain and wind. Also these small structures are not a good idea. To make it more habitable you need to make it the size of a small island; so you need to think in terms of a long term build.
Next the energy sources; again you are on an ocean. Temperatures will be extreme; ever been on a boat out there? It is cold at night and hot during the day. Geo themal is the way to fix that. The waters can keep the temp stabile while also using the currents to do all the work. Then you can also use same currents to run back up generators. They have that new transparent solar cell they are working on; so make the half dome out of that to also create energy. The sun reflecting off the water will provide tons of solar energy… The wind is a good idea but would require a new technique being the first major storm and they would be ruined. But at least you were thinking what was there. This off the coast of California is a bad idea in my eyes. Earthquakes will cause this to fail before it can be used for the greater good. Off the coast of Virginia would be a better geographic location. not many hurricanes that far north, mild winters most of the time, and almost no earthquakes.
Now you are on an ocean; How come no one has thought about the fact you can’t drink the sea water? I would start thinking about the salt distilery you need to build in order to survive. Make freshwater and you can grow your own vegies and possible live stock. Also what about the waste? Physical trash would need to be incinerated and also kept at a minumum. Human waste could be channneled down to the sea floor where scavengers would eat it like they do in nature. Now you need to worry about soaps; they would kill these scavengers and ruin the area. Toilets and cleaning stations have to be separated and soap water has to go to a recycling plant; and toilets can use salt water as to not harm the sea creatures that will eat the waste.
That is the first set of thoughts I had when looking at this for the first time…August 17, 2011 at 6:03 pm #14718
Everything you’ve brought up has been discussed in depth in a number of threads. Welcome to the forum though =)
Some friendly advice, that post came off FAR more condescending and poorly concieved than you probably intended, you might want to edit it :p
King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.August 17, 2011 at 7:14 pm #14719
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
I have to agree with XNS there is literally nothing that has not been discussed yet on these forums. The problem is there is almost no structure to find what theme is discussed where and when. So if you do not read trough all the forums you will probably miss it.
I have always been narrowly interested in “engineering themes” and the “how to apply part” of seasteading. leaving al “political talk” aside. I get from your post that you are most of all interested in that part so my personal linklist to find relevant threadthemes might be helpful for you to scan trough quickly…
Adriatic LNG / floating concrete structures / build south america / module standardisation / light inside / The first Seasteading Solutions / Floating marina development / Houseboats lagoon design / module size / minimum size / growth rate / foto update / testing out / Beakwater design-U shape / Building small start up units key / submerged vs surface float / grid platfroms / lack of concrete ships / Structure building cost compare / multihull flat float / bubble living space / competivity for seasteaders / economy on the oceans whales / CDI glomar beaufort / floating concrete structures business deep water access / module size sweetspots / hardening houseboats ring structures / Monaco Breakwater / loose raft up marina / connections / breakwater / breakwater rethink / structure cost / small concrete shell seastead / Evolution after Nkossa / concrete flat raft mastering high seas / industry float out / keep simple / connections / station keeping / wind profile / Plate Basics / Mobile Marina Seastead Hybrid / submerged / plate rol models / transparency / fishfarming / sub connect /Submerged living space exists / Avoid wave hazards / Rion-Antirion Pylon / Ecofisk Tank / avoid surface /stationary submerged structures / minimum budget for a project / start seasteading issues / pilot project implementation / submerged seastead design/ facility cost / start up sizes / spiral island / flat raft sea behavior / floating marina development / start near city center / float and business / where seasteading application stands / venture capital handling / no second life for steel ships / concrete structures at sea / do business / minimum starting unit / finance group dynamics / funding model incorporate 5000/month / moving heavy structures / avoid third party / magellan network / project stoppers minor issues / blending in to local practice / floating culture and lifesyle / steer a small project trough starting phase / discussion is over testing is up / minimum start up site key west / pilot project log float / hardening housboat structures / project group vs single investor / enclose living space in a economic way practical test / general design aproach testing out / freeboard height of a plate seastead / hurricane strategy / catamaran floating structure / cost of building and floating out 20m structures / testrun a 20m cube / existing ship size floating resort in steel /
concretesubmarine.comAugust 17, 2011 at 7:42 pm #14721
I actually like this thread. Although I agree with XNS the tone of this thread is a bit combative I love that you are thinking in harder hitting and grounded terms. Most people haven’t lived on the ocean and some realities become extremely clear when you do. Seasteading.org is not the organization that is going to build, nor design, these structures. They are here to help you (or anyone who can) succeed in doing so. People will only benefit from hearing what you have to say and putting forth their own ideas to counter your combative approach.
I encourage you to take an aspect of your rant, for example the garbage issue, and find a solution. Post it, challenge others to make it better. Then move on to the next thing and so on. Challenge people without all-out disheartening them. Be the (often harsh) voice of reason, but do it for the good of the project.
This is an idea I believe in. That said no harsh words will match the political, engineering and economic hurdles facing this project. I believe as seasteaders we will have to be tough to combat the challenges that are coming our way. Facing tough realities is our first step.
Thanks for your post.
-RonAugust 18, 2011 at 12:45 am #14739
I was just stating the obvious points; and I did read the threads. Most are off in these dream worlds of fiction and yes that is nice to think all things are possible. I read the mission statement of this project, it is to go outside and create a real plan and one that can be done. Right now I see the major funding coming from billionaires looking for a write off… The common man won’t be able to afford these flights of fancy; that is also real… Nukes for back up!? really Magnetics are safer and been around for a while like I told on another thread. Cheaper also…. My major point for this thread was to show the direction people are taking are not looking at things that can be done. Everyone would love food replicators and recyclers like in Star Trek; and new age space polymers; but that isn’t here and won’t be for many years… The idea I had from what this place should be is a place free of a greed economy so things like this can be real.
Another thought I had after my first thought Concrete didn’t work for ships they fell apart, metal rust…. Why hasn’t anyone thought about recycled plastics?
Until you start to challange yourself to think about building a real place with what is real and here? You are just a dreamer in a fantasy world. I for one would really like to see this happen.August 18, 2011 at 2:21 am #14743
somebody woke up on the wrong side of the sour patch. please dont troll around our forum. we can see you have a lot of questions. please be respectful and ask the community. we have a tremendous amount of information – but sometimes you just have to ask politely.
we do not have adequate illustrations for all of the proposed designs. the illustrations you find of the “Clubstead” model are a few years old and do not reflect all of the advancements and considerations we have discussed here on this forum.
welcome to a whole new world. your imagination hasnt begun to realize the full potential.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 18, 2011 at 3:34 am #14747
I’m right here you realize? Selling recycled plastic pontoons? That… no one is talking about.
In all seriousness though, Concrete is the ideal material for affordable long-term structures constantly in contact with the ocean. It’s chemically identical and molecularly similar to aragonite, which is the material coral skeletons are made of. It gains compressive resistance in an alkaline environment and if you use rebar that doesn’t rust, it lasts thousands of years. Far more than what you need.
King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.August 18, 2011 at 12:35 pm #14764
Again sorry; I am not trying to dishearten you guys but they say the truth hurts and I guess I have hit that vein…
Here is a link to what happens to concrete in the ocean
that isn’t thousands of years of decay but what does reality know huh? Also homes that are not a thousand years old have leaks in basements and have their concrete blocks disolve with the moisture. Like the house on a bad foundation; you can not live or build on a bad foundation.
Think about the plastics end; tons of plastics are everywhere. Philidelphia has proposed a beverage tax to deal with it. If you took said plastics from these places they pay you creating a steady source of income and a endless supply of materials.But I am thinking in terms of do something for real.
How much did it cost to build a cruise ship; well the newest, the disney dream they say cost a zillion. I guess that is why mooring a bunch together isn’t a good plan. plus they are dependant on land for supplies. So all these plans to build the nemo fleet is unrealistic. Truthfully these plans I see are fantasy resorts that are tourist attractions and not a real seastead plan…August 18, 2011 at 1:38 pm #14766
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
…concrete blocks disolve with the moisture…
Sounds like you are not aware that there are thousands of industrial sized floating concrete structures on the ocean as we speak… all of them performing excellent for many decades.
please start reading at:
Also check the following projects, ADRIATIC , Nkossa, Monaco Breakwater, Rion-Antirion, Troll A, Ekofisk Tank, Heidrun, etc.etc. – which all has been mentioned pictured and discussed on the forums (pls use search function) to get a clearer picture what concrete building on the ocean is about…
if you have similar sized and performance proved plastic structures in mind – pls provide a link…August 18, 2011 at 3:32 pm #14769
Here’s an idea.
Build a 5x5x3 constellation of seventy-five 40′ HC corrugated steel shipping containers (200x40x28.5 feet). Weld solid all of the container-container seams inside and out. Media blast the entire exterior and apply a corrosion inhibitor/adhesion promoter. Blow a 6″ layer of fiber-reinforced Grancrete or Shotcrete on the bottom and sides. Get a few tons of recycled plastic that is all compatible with itself, melt it and shoot a 3″ layer of it over the concrete. Smooth out the finished surface.
Best of all worlds. Interior structure of shipping containers, which we know float on their own; the rigidity of the concrete hull, and the buoyancy and durability of plastic, and water tight at every layer
The corner castings in the containers would help the concrete grip the structure and the rough finished surface of the concrete would do the same for the sputtered on plastic.
Cut passageways in the container-container bulkheads as needed to accommodate all living-working-technical areas in the design, and build whatever superstructure on top that’s needed. Interior spaces can be media blasted, sprayed with the same corrosion inhibitor/adhesion promoter as on the outside, but then, in lieu of shotcrete, spray on a 3″ layer of closed cell insulating foam on the inside of the hull and around any rooms that are designed to get extremely hot or extremely cold.
To make it fit holc’s idea of a “ship”, More shipping containers can be used, cutting the sides off and welding them up to a bow superstructure and treating it as I described for the over-all hull. Perhaps adding additional inches to its concrete and plastic layers for durability. That would easily get it over the 205′ minimum.
Rigging with engines and propulsion gear is left as an exercise for the reader.
I have a thorium reactor under the hood of my car. I get ∞ miles per gallon.August 19, 2011 at 9:53 pm #14818
And I’m going to say this again; I’m Selling Recycled Plastic Pontoons… search for the “Modular Island Design” thread.
And your process of justification is quite unscientific, you’re citing failed instances without taking into account the successes and calculating the percentage of failure. By your line of reasoning, the 16 plastic pontoons we sank during testing would be enough to conclude that plastic is a bad material… :p
King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.August 20, 2011 at 8:52 am #14824
Concrete can be formulated for one’s needs, ever heard ‘pozzolan’? With right amount of certain fine grains portland cement, sand, pozzolan, some chemicals perhaps you can have a seaworthy building, and most importantly strength requirement for contruction elements in an oceanstead is huge. There are many and i mean many better methods than using ferrocement, yet feasibility issue comes up when we start to discuss them. So… it’s ferrocement for you unless electricity gets cheaper hundredfold (don’t think i’d use seacreate in that case, i’d go for carbon nanostructures if feasibility wasn’t an issue) I’d consider plastic if we weren’t constantly under sun though, it is hard to calculate wear and tear of plastic materials in ocean conditions, especially when you take sunlight into account, i wouldn’t dis the whole idea of plastics though, don’t get me wrong, with a proper plastic formula(i am not talking about waste plastic) and a sunlight isolation you could have a pretty sturdy seastead i guess…
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