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Design shortcomings

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This topic contains 10 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 3 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 11 posts - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
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  • #1225
    Avatar of xiagos
    xiagos
    Participant

    After reading a good many posts about seasteads and viewing the winning entry of the design contest, I think many factors are being overlooked with regards to design criteria.

    I think that design criteria should be based on the following assumptions:

    1. Among the most important reasons for the creation of a seastead is the love of, and desire for liberty.
    2. Whether or not the purpose of the seastead includes autonomy from land-based states, the seastead must either be self-sufficent or be the home of the idle-rich who will require the importing of large amounts of luxury goods as well as necessities.
    3. Unless the seastead is intended to be highly dependent on supplies from land-based states, it must produce most of its own food and potable water. Further, it must be sufficiently productive in goods and services so as not to become a welfare state in the world, or a playground only for the rich.
    4. The seastead must be designed and built with economy in mind.

    Two things that are common to all of these assumptions are economy and sulf-sufficiency. Liberty is purchased at the cost of sweat and blood, or with lots of money. Thus, economy of construction and operation is vital to the libertarian. Self-sufficiency is closely related to liberty in that the more you rely on others for your daily, the more power these others have over you.

    All of the designs I have seen presented or talked about look and sound like hotels floating on the water. Hotels do not produce their own food. They buy food from outside sources to feed the inhabitants. Hotels do not provide their own potable water. They purchased treated water from the city. Hotels typically do not have buiness that produce goods and services for their residents, and especially not for trade with those on the outside. While these designs look impressive from an archetectural point of view, they would fail miserably in the real world. They simply lack the basics for a free people to survive in this world.

    What would a viable seastead design look like? I believe it would look more like this:

    1. The upper surface would be totally dedicated to agriculture, wind/solar power generation, pastures, and water collection.
    2. At least the first seastead would be anchored along the equator to avoid hurricanes in order to minimize costs.
    3. The seastead would be surrounded with a stable waterbreak to provide safe anchorage for boats, and to protect a partial beach area at the water-line that provides receation for residents and tourists. (This would eliminate the spar design from consideration, or require only a partial spar design.)
    4. Living areas would be below the upper surface. This has the advantage of removing this area from direct solar radiation that would increase energy demands for HVAC.
    5. At least a part of the breakwater would be composed of family habitats anchored solidly to an underwater truss structure.
    6. The seastead would be ringed with additional structures used for aquaculture and food processing. The processing facilities may be built according to the spar design. Some of these structures may also serve as defensive positions, and equipped with machineguns (12.7 and 14.7 mm) and larger weapons (20 to 35 mm guns).
    7. Much of the seastead will be built with modular construction for reasons of economy.

    As I see it, this is a rough concept of a real seastead. It will more closely resemble an island that a floating hotel or green house. Personally, I think this is more realistic than the idealized pictures I see present on this site. But, I am not a prophet. Although I think my vision is pretty close, someone else may have a better vision. Or, a different point of view. If so, good for you! Let’s hear it.

    #9859
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    There are several very different ideas about what seasteads should be. They do not all look like oil platforms or hotels.

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Seastead

    There is at least some interest in self sufficient seasteads:

    http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Self_sufficient_seastead

    #9862
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    xiagos wrote:
    Among the most important reasons for the creation of a seastead is the love of, and desire for liberty.

    I’d try to be a little less specific with these types of factors. For all you know, there might be people who would love to live on a fascist seastead…or a seastead where only people of a certain race can live. Instead of saying “liberty” I would say that one of the most important reasons is the freedom to create new societies and run them without interference from existing nations.

    xiagos wrote:
    All of the designs I have seen presented or talked about look and sound like hotels floating on the water.

    That’s because most seastead designs revolve around profit. It’s not about creating new societies, it’s about making money on the high seas. That’s one of the big concerns I have with this new TSI medical cruise thing. It is a completely different thing designing a for-profit floating platform than it is designing a self-sufficient floating colony, and I don’t see much cross-over between the two.

    xiagos wrote:
    It will more closely resemble an island

    I agree completely. The less the seastead looks like a floating hotel or casino or cruise ship the better. The closer it resembles an actual landmass the better chance of being seen as a real experiment in new societies and less a money-making scam.

    #9888
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    1. Among the most important reasons for the creation of a seastead is the love of, and desire for liberty.

    It is for me, but I think we should be neutral in why people should seastead, lest we scare away a bunch of people unneccessarily.

    1. Whether or not the purpose of the seastead includes autonomy from land-based states, the seastead must either be self-sufficent or be the home of the idle-rich who will require the importing of large amounts of luxury goods as well as necessities.

    Not at all. A seastead can import goods from all over the world, like people everywhere do. Even entire countries cannot be self-sufficient without ending up a miserable failure like North Korea. How could a society of tens or hundreds or thousands be self-sufficient when countries of millions cannot? Global trade is the mechanism that has brought us the (in a historical perspective) immense material wealth we have today.

    If you mean economic self-sufficiency, then yes, that would be good. But there is no way a seastead will supply everything to its inhabitants, or even close to it. You can try, but you’ll end up with the standard of living of a few centuries ago. Concentrate on a business that you are good at, and trade for the things things that others are good at.

    1. Unless the seastead is intended to be highly dependent on supplies from land-based states, it must produce most of its own food and potable water. Further, it must be sufficiently productive in goods and services so as not to become a welfare state in the world, or a playground only for the rich.

    It must produce money to sustain itself. It must not produce every product (and it cannot).

    1. The seastead must be designed and built with economy in mind.

    Agreed.

    Two things that are common to all of these assumptions are economy and sulf-sufficiency. Liberty is purchased at the cost of sweat and blood, or with lots of money. Thus, economy of construction and operation is vital to the libertarian. Self-sufficiency is closely related to liberty in that the more you rely on others for your daily, the more power these others have over you.

    I disagree. Buying what you need does not make you dependent on any one supplier. You have many to choose from if one goes bad somehow .

    On design: At the moment the most realistic design seems to be a used cruise ship or something similar (container ship or tanker perhaps). Smaller vessels and single-family seasteads are cheaper, but it is difficult to imagine how they will create some sort of coherent society, or be attractive for entrepreneurs.

    #12303
    Avatar of clarkd
    clarkd
    Participant

    I agree that a ship makes a better seastead than a SPAR or other big, not very movable floating thing.

    Until many other seasteads are built, I can imagine myself on a 30″x60″ SWATH with 2 submerged hulls cruising from island to island in the Caribbean. If I don’t like the view or my liberties are infringed upon, then I can just motor over to the next island. Land other than the many island countries is not far away, including Mexico and the USA. If I am going to live on the water, it will have to be warm. (I currently live in Canada and had 20 below weather with snow storm the last few days.) Until many hundreds of people live on seasteads, people will want to live near other people which means closer to shore. Does living by yourself 50 ft in the air with 1,000 ‘s of ft of water below you, bother anyone? A SWATH vessel in many ways is like a SPAR structure except that it is much lighter (no ballast) and streamlined so getting around or station keeping would be much cheaper. A SWATH ship can’t survive 100 year storm but it wouldn’t need to because it could just run and hide. The SPAR might or might not make it so I wouldn’t stay on board regardless. Patents for SWATH ships ran out more than 10 years ago if anyone is interested. SWATH has good sea handling characteristics and can be made stable when not moving without ballast by using stabilizers.

    By scaling down some existing technology (SWATH) and adding a few new incites (ferro/cement for under water floats), this kind of vessel should be able to be made at a reasonable cost and have the huge benefit of being dock able and running and hiding from the big waves or hurricanes.

    All the big designs, including the SPAR designs which I quite like, are not made to efficiently outrun a storm. This design has a rectangular shape and it could be made to join with others of it’s kind in normal sea states. Also able to run and hide when sea state is not so nice.

    Having a workable design that has a reasonable cost is much more important to me than producing food. I agree with Carl that a seastead only needs to trade and be economically sustainable which isn’t the same as producing everything yourself.

    Re-purposing ships designed for other purposes is not a solution. Even if 1 or 2 people got a good deal on something used and did extensive modifications to make it work as a seastead, these efforts would not be easily duplicated so not a solution for everyone.

    #12304

    swath is a version of the “multihull concept” it sounds like a “modern concept” but it is around for a very long time not only as the catamaran yacht, but also as the asian floating house built on bambus bundles, in its primitive verson as a log float (See Kon-Tiki) and in its elegant light ancient version as the polinesian catamaran.

    As proven by polynesians and Heyerdahl even if built “low tech” and heavy it is a extremly seaworthy concept.

    Those who are interested in a life as sea gypsy on a multihull might be interested in the strory of Taboo of Wolfgang Hausner who lived for decades on board of such a concept and sailed 3 times around the world in it…(taboo) – he is actually making a living from fishing, trading and tourism.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #12305
    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    Not really adding value to the conversation here but…

    The first pic you posted is of the Nekton Pilot… a boat I worked on in 2005-2006. HAHAHA

    I have always loved the SWATH style for seasteading but that is an incredibly expensive boat. Great power with the two CATS, Great deck layouts (Hot tub on the sun deck), and a Diving Deck that raised and lowered. It was a great time, great crew and great boat.

    Thank you.

    #12307
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Carl wrote:

    Not at all. A seastead can import goods from all over the world, like people everywhere do. Even entire countries cannot be self-sufficient without ending up a miserable failure like North Korea. How could a society of tens or hundreds or thousands be self-sufficient when countries of millions cannot? Global trade is the mechanism that has brought us the (in a historical perspective) immense material wealth we have today.

    conisider that perhaps supporting larger populations is more difficult than smaller ones.

    for instance cyanobacteria grow all their own food,

    though can also get energy from chemical reactions,

    gathering nutrients from water,

    they have fabrication facilities,

    allowing them to reproduce.

    Humans lived for long periods of time in self-sustaining nomadic tribes.

    We could easily do so on the ocean as well, following harvest season, foraging food, or reselling

    Can also gather materials from places of abundance for manufacturing any product.

    The main issue is integrated langauge that can store and organize and express the how-to manuals,

    I’m currently working on human-speakable-programming language to help facilitate that goal.

    If you mean economic self-sufficiency, then yes, that would be good. But there is no way a seastead will supply everything to its inhabitants, or even close to it. You can try, but you’ll end up with the standard of living of a few centuries ago.

    Did you know that people were happier in the 50′s?

    Also we could have much more advanced technologies,

    since currently many techs are being covered-up an suppressed by militaries.

    with fabrication laboratories we can make any product we can imagine.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #12308
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Your list of “shortcomings” looks to me like a 5 year action plan. Incremental improvement in small landmark goal posts.

    If you try to make an everything solution on the first draft be prepared to open up your wallet or spend a century getting it done.

    #12332
    Avatar of Distorted-Humor
    Distorted-Humor
    Participant

    I think the “Self-sufficiency” is not a major goal, perhaps being self-sufficient on some regards (water, and perhaps food) but trade with land based states is going to be a requirement for a long time. and the products will have to be something that you cannot have on land due to laws, or something that is so regulated that it cheaper to do under your own rules to cover the cost of being at sea, or finally, be something you can ONLY do at sea.

    Or you may have a reason to go at sea, for example, political or religous views that you cannot find a suitable land based state.

    #12341
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    sorry dude i totally disagree. the seasteads should look like “hotels”. once you separate yourself economically and have no economic ties to the rest of the world, you become a threat and an alien. people who live on seasteads need to be wealthy. thats just the way it is. cope with it.

    and have a nice day.

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