Creating the Demand
July 3, 2011 at 4:52 am #14063
thats ur opinion. and maybe a lot of other peoples’ too. but it doesnt change it to a fact. the real fact is that no one ever offered anything like a bergstead b4. we havent always had the technology to build massive floating concrete islands. N’kossa is a good example but the real test is when somebody actually builds a floating residential island and tries to market it.
the part where ur getting mixed up is that ur thinking of the uber rich, and the terribly poor. like they’re 2 kinds of people with nothing in between. the uber rich can affford an ocean going vessel all to themselves, they can afford to fuel it up, and they can afford to maintain and replace it. the upper middle class/ lower upper-class can only afford a small yacht – at best. thatrs not an ocean-going vessel. they know as well as u know that if the world turned to anarchy and they wanted to escape that a 50-70 foot yacht offers a very shallow piece of mind. a concrete berg-isle beyond the EEZ would provide the healthy environment their families need to keep growing and thriving during the “worst case scenario” crisis. if all hell broke loose on the pale blue dot, would u rather be isolated in a yacht or protected by a massive self-sufficient floating island – which has a lot of equally smart and wealthy people with you – not just ur retarded servants?
such a berg-isle is affordable to the lower upper class because it fits many people. from hundreds to thousands – in total luxury.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”July 3, 2011 at 8:33 am #14065
Selling floating property to whoever is called a real estate business, not seasteading. What does your bergstead really have to offer, that any other floating slab of concrete can’t? You are also misinformed, since a 50′-70′ boat IS an ocean-going vessel that the middle upper class can easily afford. I highly doubt that in case of the “worst case scenario” any seastead will be able to survive, since your assumtion that a seastead can be totally self sufficient is an unproven fact so far. What you are proposing, will cost billions dollars to built. After the Freedomship fiasco it will be very hard to find investors in such venture.
PS. In case of total global anarchy or other “worst case scenarios” the smart, wealthy “masters” will become totaly obsolete to their retarded “servents” since they won’t be able to pay them. Therefore, it will be mutiny imediatelly and the “masters” will be the first one to hit the deck. The servers will become the masters.July 3, 2011 at 2:19 pm #14066
ellmer – http://yook3.comParticipant
I find it quite innecessary to have a heated discussion about the topic if one should take the millions of investor money – if you have a opportunity – of course nobody will say no to it.
The real question is – what are you doing in the meanwhile while waiting for the million dollar opportunity blank check… making large scale dreams solving imaginary problems of imaginary seasteads empowered by imaginary millions and imaginary technology, discussing it endless with kids whose basic ideas can not stand a simple reality check of physics and economics ?
Or do you just go for “baking smaller cakes” and start to float out something very small, very local, hoping you will catch the attention of a real million dollar investor some day down the road in a possible future.
Why don’t we have a “grown up” discussion about the newest real world developments in stationary accomodation of people and equipment in the open seas represented by concepts like the ramform banff…it is not a yacht, is rolling only 3 degees in 18m waves can run 15 knots, has potential to be made of concrete, points into the same direction as the WHY yacht.
In fact the cube shape was already tested on the suggested scale and the outcome is this ( launch / wave motion / building ) – the need for improvement of the wave motion part came up – the ramform banff could be an answer. Ramform . You could start with a very small ramform for protected water and grow it to “mid ocean capeable” over time.
Wilfried EllmerJuly 3, 2011 at 4:47 pm #14067
i just wrote an answer that had 11 parts and addressed everything said between ellmo and ocean but at the end i clicked a link for “ramform”, then i clicked back and it was all gone. other websites dont have that problem. im not writing the whole thing again.
but basically you’re both wrong about almost everything you said. the only thing true was that this berg would cost billions and would be a challenge after the freedom ship fiasco. neither of you showed any interest in “creating the demand” for consumers.
that floating coast guard island is not 500m sq. and its not moored to one corner, either. if you attached the mooring cable to one corner the waves will break against the corner and drastically reduce the wave motion felt onboard.
if u had a series of MMKs sitting next to this 500m sq berg, which one is more likely to attract consumer interest?
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”July 3, 2011 at 6:20 pm #14068
“Wrong” for wasting our time trying to educate those who have no clue.July 3, 2011 at 6:45 pm #14069
i spent 6 years in education beyond high school. i think i know the difference between education and some punk foaming at the mouth. i’ve had all the “helpfulness” i can take. so if my convo doesnt interest you, go elsewhere.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”July 3, 2011 at 9:03 pm #14073
Geez, this place sounds like a bunch of kindergarteners.
Let’s everybody just settle down and at least pretend to act like mature adults.
Voluteer admin, moderator, and primary spamfighterJuly 4, 2011 at 7:58 am #14076
Let’s everybody just settle down and at least pretend to act like mature adults.
…So long as I only have to pretend.July 4, 2011 at 8:35 am #14078
SSI has chosen it’s direction:
Also came across this:
Now sell it!July 4, 2011 at 3:07 pm #14079
i love that design, actually. when i first came here earlier this year i proposed similar but enhanced versions of this idea – but then i was assaulted by the proletariat. ellmer said it was too much money to build separate floatation, lifting elements and living space. so i’ve been stuck on floating concrete ever since. but come to think of it, it doesnt seem like raised platforms would be that bad after all, when you consider that a solid concrete structure is probably more expensive than a raised one anyway.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”July 4, 2011 at 9:22 pm #14081
I think that me and you bent backwards countless times to get a small, reasonably priced seastead started here, and all our efforts were met with indifference, criticism and more recently name calling. Why keep on selling diamonds to the hogs? Give me one good reason.July 5, 2011 at 5:55 pm #14084
I know you and Wil have been “trying” for a long time.. and you havent heard a peep from me in almost a year. But let me say this:
SeaSteading has its monicur brom HomeSteading and is a nation building process in the same manner. But everyone, even back then, wanted/s to put in thier two cents. It is this process of discussion and evaluation that will eventually lead to “meaning and substance”. I love to hear you all get so wound up and fierce about your ideas and opinions because without the passion there will be no creation. Without these forums, we would all be working this stuff out on our own… while it is frustrating to go over the same things over and over agian it is still a benefit in the long run for those who truely intend to realize seasteading.
Stand as tall by your accomplishments as your failures because both define and shape your future…
Because there are a 1000 ways to make a lightbulb but only one design was chosen…
And find those things in life that make life worth the effort because you never know when your time is up…
JTGJuly 9, 2011 at 12:14 pm #14094
hey guys, back for a second, then away again for another 30 days or so, probably.
I just wanted to say that, in the end, we are all very unlikely to see any large scale projects floated, whatever the funding, where the plan is to build a community at sea. In our lives, we will only likely see businesses or governments take part in such endeavors. Thus, if we wish to have any real impact, we have to focus on what is likely for us to advance the ideal, and that is small, local, mainly coastal projects. One family steads, five platform link-ups, that kind of thing. That is my personal focus. It is, in my personal opinion, the only likely form of water-based community likely within the next several decades.July 9, 2011 at 2:04 pm #14096
i dont disagree about large-scale projects being far far off in the future. but i still think even the small startup projects are going to need some heavy-duty funding. i sure hope im wrong, but as yet there hasnt been a single person with a vision thats compelling enough to make me believe otherwise.
i just wish somebody would TAKE my ideas and add their own contribution until we have something believable and inspiring that would draw wider appeal.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”August 15, 2011 at 4:21 pm #14660
Currently worst thing about TSI is the ‘goal’ part when i look at TSI objectively i don’t see a group (i am talking about the founding members of this non-profit organization not forum contributers or enthusiasts), they don’t look like they are seeking any ideology anymore, they don’t even act like it anymore, whole thing looks like an attempt for business, though it would be weird for me to expect otherwise perhaps. While most of us look at seasteading as a way to live some of us also look at it as a way to make more money. As we speak now i am working and saving money like hell and overwork my brain on how to make more money(import/export, agricultural products, poultry products, network solutions, computer retail etc….these are some of the stuff i am using my brain for lately) but none of my thoughts on money include anything to do about seasteading, seasteading is my goal not my tool afterall, i’ll even risk some serious time and perhaps capital in a few months, gonna go Kenya, South Sudan and Somalia to research the prices of some products(i already have reports, yet things doesn’t work remotely when you are dealing with said countries), i’ve researched shipping costs, customs etc. even managed to find investors. Anyways i can sustain my life pretty comfortably with my way of living as i am now yet i still dare to take risks, it is not because for i am young and i am not doing it for money alone, i am doing it because i have my own vision and i need money to accoplish it, seasteading is part of that vision. Probably i am what you call ‘demand’ or at least will be in near future, however i really wouldn’t work with most of guys here just because of ideological differences, we are into seasteading so that we can get away from the system we live in(at least i am).
It ticks me off when i or anyonelse approaches seasteading with the same attitude as if it is another real estate or yacht retail business. Seasteading may provide opportunities for real estate agents and naval engineers that’s a fact, however with such approach we won’t see my authoritarian dream state(ok seems i confessed it, you already knew it anyways) or Frusha’s tranquil self sustaining familysteads with a neighbourhood of similar minded seasteads(that is his vision as i’ve understood till now) we’ll only see our ideas applied to new model yachts like WHY, hotels like Poseidon(Fiji), Cruise ships like Utopia, touristic investments swimming on coastal waters etc… none of them will be or will aim to be selfsustaining and sovereign entities. You might say i don’t care as long as i can party to my heart’s content without restrictions on narcotics, prostitution etc and this is my vision of ‘freedom’ and encourage the seasteading(?) models i exampled above but what you are missing is they aren’t actually seasteading(!). Anyways if you want a bergstead build it, i don’t have a problem with you neither your design (actually i might even like it, though i think they suit more to Aegian, Adriatic etc. rather than HighSeas, though it’s open for debate, let’s not debate on that) but i think i quite don’t like your and some other individuals’ approach to seasteading (since your expectation from seasteading isn’t a lifestyle but a business as i see it), i don’t mean to offend though don’t get me wrong, there are people with everykind of mentality out there and yours is probably the most common one making me the weirdo here. I am more of a type that prefers hiring an engineer&architect and construct a house instead of buying it unless i can’t do it myself or i can’t build it as cheap, you can look at it as a waste of time, but is just becuse i don’t get along with people who earn money without doing any actual job, and i don’t acknowledge real estate agency as a business however profitable it may be, though i relate to them since i too sell stuff for more than it costs me but i don’t see it as my job. I am aware that almost in any large scale business there are people who produce and who sell stuff, i wouldn’t mind paying people who produce for their technical skills but not for their scamming skills and i wouldn’t call the latter one a job. I think most of marketing process must be a public service especially distribution and promotion, probably my political view and my reasoning would look alien or impracticle to you though and perhaps you would ask why i am writing on a business thread it is because i don’t think it is this threads intention to find ways to sell seasteads or related stuff unless you are intending to manufacture and produce your seasteads, their parts and their raw material out there on a seastead, this thread should be about (I feel the need to express that, this is only my opinion as contributor of this forum, not a fact.) how and what business we can/should do on a seastead.
Leaving my socialist ideology aside and look at your approach with the eyes of a real estate agent who is capitalist to the core, i can clearly see that there is a fundemental error in your way of looking at seasteading as a real estate business opportunity, as a permanent residence seasteads are less attracting to customers than their equal priced counterparts on land except for a few (ok maybe not so few)millionaires who are seeking a place where taxman can’t reach them and for people who are planning to conduct business which would be illegal elsewhere, first being limited to only a few thousand individuals(in U.S.) second being out of question due to negative impact it would cause on promotion which limits the customer protfolio so much that no investor would take seasteading too seriously(in most of the World if not all). At first glance millionaires escaping from taxman might sound like good call for real estate agents however on the second thought there is little chance real estate can compete with the established yacht retail/industry in this market. Utopia and similar large projects may succeed in this sense however with a few such large scale projects that market will be satisfied and be no more. Another customer portfolio must be targeted.So who will buy seasteads? People who live in seasteads aren’t good enough, they also must work there if we are to sell them and most importantly it must be feasible for them to start a business out there, in the middle of nowhere and this is actually a fact if you are planning to market seasteads as your product.
I am sure that people like Patri Friedman probably concluded this simple fact long before the foundation of this institute and it is most likely the reason he and his fellow partners created this organization and this forum, ‘to find business fields that would prove profitable on seasteads’. On the other hand people like me didn’t think on this subject so throughly before thus we had to discover this fact for ourselves, and we’ve seen it re-discovered over and over again by beginners on this forum. I am not a veteran myself i hardly contribute any useful data to be honest though it is also a fact that i am not learning alot from it’s content, i am participating on these forums because it motivates me, by the way i am by no means assuming that people here lack sufficient knowledge about seasteading, i know many people here are yacht enthusiasts who are far more into this than me and that there are people with solid engineering knowledge, yet knowledge exchange here is somewhat inefficent and it is only natural since we have to read&write all this stuff and what is worse is we do it without knowing each other in person thus we usually try to write stuff in a manner as simple/short(yes this comment actually is short) as we can so that everyone can understand which results in shallow text converisations. We have been debating on business opportunities of/in seasteading on various threads for a long while (i was absent for a while though but it seems we didn’t come up with anything new in that while so…) so i think we must change our attitude and discuss possible business aspects of seasteading in detail, for example internet topic(in infrastructure section if i don’t remember wrong) was quite informative for me and there are other topics i can remember to be more informative than rest of the threads, yet they are rare mostly we tend to agree/disagree/argue with each other on various subjects(i tend do it time to time too even if i don’t mean it) but really who cares? we don’t even know eachother(i am aware this doesn’t apply to all of us) all we should share is informative comments, i think it will be alot more if we use forum that way(okay i know wiki exists but i think forums would be as much benefical/efficient if not more if we use it in a similar manner).
Returning to the subject; my capitalist/materialist/realist alterself’s thoughts on how to create demand:
In order to find what we will do with seasteads we must define a seastead. The seastead i will talk about in this paragraph is a semi-mobile Homestead desingned for coastal waters and for mostly urban use as a permanent residency and perhaps as a home office. Seastead is first of all a residence yet as a residence it’s only plus point is it’s low level of mobility. Minus points include cost, upkeep, maintenance, laws, safety, comfort when compared to a regular residence on land. If it is a product meant to be marketed as a real estate for permanent residency these minus points must be adressed. As we all know seasteading isn’t commonly practiced throughout the world, this is proof that these problems can’t be adressed at the same time at a satisfactory level with current market prices of materials and technology. By increasing cost safety, comfort, maintenance issues may be handled, resulting price for a seastead however can’t compete with yacht industry even if they are being mass-produced in a hybrid way of prefabricated construction methods, traditional and modern shipbuilding methods, To turn the tables for coastal seasteads as a business opportunity there are 2 major problems that must be adressed first is upkeep and legal issues second is finding a customer portfolio. Keeping seasteads towed to a marina would increase upkeep and add to the overall cost of seasteads. They aren’t as mobile as yachts thus they might cause traffic hazards on busy port towns/cities and perhaps safety hazards, for the safety of public and private property seastead traffic and upkeep will have to be regulated in port towns/cities which means there will be a need for a new legal framework solely for subjects related to seasteads which will result in an increased cost of upkeep due taxes which are levied to fund the enforcement of regulations and perhaps the construction and upkeep of public marinas. That said legal framework must be researched prior to investment so that overall price and marketeability of the seastead can be predicted. when the you have the price at hand you can start looking for customers. Price/overall price, customer portfolio, legal framework when you include these three in your project and you are convinced that your product is marketable you can look for investors, looking for them before this isn’t impossible but it is unlikely to bear fruit in unorthodox projects such as seasteading. Technical knowledge to determine cost for various seasteads for various people is present and how seasteads can be regulated can be researched easily if one is serious about it. What we can do is to come up with products keeping these points in mind, if it is marketable it isn’t hard to find investors or promoting the product/creating demand. If you haven’t adressed these problems, if you lack a somewhat detailed feasibility/cost report it is too early to look for investors and more so for promoting the product.
Returning to my real self which i can’t define as clearly as my imaginary alterself above: I’ll just keep saving money, if i somehow reach the amount i am after, which is unlikely i’ll just build the seastead i have in mind and call in likeminded people(proven) onboard for free.
I can’t believe i’ve been writing for this long while being so sleepy, sigh… Sorry for grammar/spell errors, thanks for your time reading it.
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