Creating the Demand
June 18, 2011 at 9:37 pm #13889
eh, now that i look at it i can see how i left it open for the wrong interpretation. my bad, dude.
anyway. because seasteading gives us a grand opportunity to re-invent the way humans conduct their lives, i want to start envisioning some concepts. i think we should do away with all kinds of meat. actually we might as well throw away the plant based foods too. perhaps we can develop food thats like a mush which has all the nutrients needed to maintain optimal health for human bodies. uh, it starts a little like cat food, but would be modifiable for different consistencies and flavor variations. it could be ‘printed’ to look like anything you desire. imagine a plate that has what looks like a chicken wing on it but when you bite into it, pistachio ice cream is the actual flavor. all food would deliver the same perfet diet, but with any flavor and consistency you want.
also, i envision a highly robotic future. one where open-source robotics are all around us, and one world governance provides guaranteed social minimums for all people. ahhhhhh… just soakin up the sun… i need a drink….
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”June 27, 2011 at 4:18 am #13980
how about a nightclub/restaurant on a bergstead!!? wouldnt that b hot? so what u think? im thinking a single-level berg 40m x 40m would meet the size requirement to prevent too much rocking. think about it. sexy bitches. live music. lots of partying. ferry over on a 10 minute boat ride? no property taxes or rent for the owner. party up on the deck or inside. make the ceilings 15′ high. put 20-30 rooms where people can pay to spend the night. i think we have a winner w this one. has it been proposed b4, if so where?
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”June 27, 2011 at 5:58 am #13981
Reminds me of the Floating Castle that used to be moored in the San Diego Bay. I used to sail many times past it and one day I stopped, docked and “visit”, since it was abandoned and open. Pretty cool thing, the inside had a “lagoon” and there were decent size rooms there. This was in ’94-’95,… In the ’80s it was a party place, some sort of “night club”, swingers, hookers, all kind of drugs, etc. But, like with any other good thing in this world, it came to an end when it got raided by the cops. It looks like it’s gone for good now. http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20020130-9999_7m30castle.html
The idea it’s not bad, if you can keep it “clean”. (good luck with that for a night club,…dahh). Also, you need a lots of cash for that. Not only to build, but for the permits, specially the liquor licence.June 28, 2011 at 1:25 am #13991
while looking at that i found this not-very-flattering article about “us”:
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”June 29, 2011 at 1:38 am #14027
“one of a kind” / or reproducible seasteads. – now, look you guys. we need to make a realization here that everyone out to create some one-of-a-kind business on the ocean is not the way to grow this thing. it has to be reproducible, or else its just a fluke. if we want to make communities on the water, they need to have attributes that will be useful for seasteaders universally.
again this is why the bergstead is the only small size platform that can provide useful living space on/in the open ocean.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”June 29, 2011 at 5:19 am #14032
What? Is it news to you that the “right’ is fighting the “left” and billion dollars interests are colliding??? Ha! Big deal. It’s been like that for centuries dude. Welcome to the party!June 29, 2011 at 9:11 am #14033
As far as food goes, after studying nutrition (and consequently, health) intensively for the past two years, I conclude several things:
- homo sapiens did great for hundreds of thousands of years perusing what was available locally, no matter where he went on the planet, no matter how extreme it seems
- industrial age food did him in, starting with early agriculture (turns out cereals aren’t really food except for birds), especially as more processes are applied, and as food becomes more uniformised across the world folmowing culture, the diseases associated with it spread too
So, the last thing would-be seasteaders should do regarding food, is to import or replicate the problems already present today on land. Instead they should follow the tried-and-true method that made our species so successful so far: gather, forage, find uses for what is readily available, make as little waste as possible from your resources, and adapt to it. Trying to engineer an ocean habitat into traditional land just to make it into a familiar environment again is a recipe for disaster. Seasteads will have their own, yet-uninvented food culture. Discovering it is also part of pioneer work.
Liberty=do what you will with what is not someone else’s
Justice=treat others as you would have them treat you
Politics=the ends are the means, and vice-versaJune 29, 2011 at 1:38 pm #14034
Jesrad, your ideas about purity of food may be noble, but they are ignorant on two levels. First is that homo sapiens were not successful as hunter-gatherers, UNLESS your definition of success is an animalistic definition. Life spans were horribly short, total nutrition levels were incredibly low, and advancement of all kinds (technological, social, cultural, etc) were stunted. The second reason it is ignorant is tied to the first, and is that homo spaien’s success was limited by the massive amounts of man-hours required to live as hunter gatherers. With the mass shift to both animal husbandry and farming fewer people were able to feed far more people, making the advent of specialization possible, where people who no longer had to focus on getting more food to ward off starvation could do things like experiment with metals, develop written language, begin mapping the stars, start understanding medicine, etc.
I completely agree that our current style of factory food production is less than ideal on many (but not all) levels, but a return to hunting/gathering is not the answer, and the proponence of such demonstrates a lack of understanding of the causality involved.June 30, 2011 at 8:35 am #14041
Actually you are grossly misinformed. Lifespan in hunter-gatherer tribes is higher than in early agricultural civilizations. For example average lifespan was around 36 years in typical paleolithic times then dropped to 18 by early sumerians, and then painfully rised to between 21 and 24 under roman empire… Besides the modal age in primitive tribes is always above 60 years, so instead of voicing clichés I suggest you go read serious studies on the subject ( http://www.google.fr/m/url?client=safari&ei=gjAMTpD0HZG5jAeohfHwAQ&hl=fr&oe=UTF-8&q=http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/pdrdraft04182006.pdf&ved=0CCYQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNFSkObwGtcznkmryieWgDyhTw5S8A ) Average life expectancy among hunter-gatherer tribes is really just marred by infant mortality rates exactly as it was in antique civilisations, our own modern increases in lifespans are due almost entirely to advances in medecine that reduce this early mortality ; once this is taken off balance you see that ‘primitives’ can and do enjoy “modern” lifespans with an average modal age of 72 years.
You are also entirely wrong on the second point, as the average time spent by a typical hunter gatherer dailyonr food is around 4 hours of work. Please research before posting.
Just to make myself clear: I am merely pointing out that the ocean is vastly different an habitat than land, so that approaches to food production typically land-based are bad solutions to pursue. My other point is that, given those differences, we will almost certainly end up with a ‘typical seasteader diet’ very different from, say, the average american diet, and that a whole new food culture is yet to be developped.
Liberty=do what you will with what is not someone else’s
Justice=treat others as you would have them treat you
Politics=the ends are the means, and vice-versaJune 30, 2011 at 7:18 pm #14044
Jesrad, your ideas about purity of food may be noble, but they are ignorant on two levels.
careful where you point that gun it might backfire.
First is that homo sapiens were not successful as hunter-gatherers,
UNLESS your definition of success is an animalistic definition.
actually hunter-gatherers were taller, stronger with larger brains than their agricultural counterparts.
Life spans were horribly short, total nutrition levels were incredibly low,
you’re refering to mideval/fuedal europe and contemporary america.
Medieval lifespans were cut short due to extreme low regard for human life,
so it was British law that anyone that wasn’t working was to be tortured to death as rogues/vagrants/vagabonds,
so older people looking to retire had to fall off the radar or die in brutal pain and suffering.
I’m sure you know about all the various “torture museums” and such.
Many so called “Barbarians” lived into their 80′s and beyond supported by family networks.
and advancement of all kinds (technological, social, cultural, etc) were stunted.
Mu, Atlantis and the Austra-asian civilizations all had space-flight capable vessels.
The second reason it is ignorant is tied to the first, and is that homo spaien’s success was limited by the massive amounts of man-hours required to live as hunter gatherers.
the average hunter-gatherer in modern day works 3-4 hours a day.
“employees” work a lot more, for a lot less, since they are effectively wage-slaves.
With the mass shift to both animal husbandry and farming fewer people were able to feed far more people, making the advent of specialization possible, where people who no longer had to focus on getting more food to ward off starvation could do things like experiment with metals, develop written language, begin mapping the stars, start understanding medicine, etc.
having a home/den/boat or place to store stuff I think is really the essential element.
though yes, knowledge of how to promote the growth of beneficial plants, fungi and animals does lead to more abundance.
I completely agree that our current style of factory food production is less than ideal on many (but not all) levels,
but a return to hunting/gathering is not the answer, and the proponence of such demonstrates a lack of understanding of the causality involved.
Actually people still do hunting and gathering, they hunt for jobs, and gather money.
They have been confused and forced off the land, so they are dependant on the concrete jungle.
However hunting-gathering is the natural way of things,
with boats we can go up and down the cost of the america’s,
going to places where the fruits are ripening and gathering them cheap.
The majority of species on the America’s are migratory,
and so it’s only natural that the most-successful civilizations should also be.
calm aware desire choice love express intuit moveJuly 1, 2011 at 1:25 am #14050July 1, 2011 at 5:07 am #14052
Ken SimsKey Master
So just what do these videos have to do with seasteading???July 1, 2011 at 7:53 am #14054
I will concede your first point. After reading your source and others, I see you are correct on the terms of longevity. I do have questions regarding whether the subjects of infant mortality and advanced medicines would have been fields that hunter/gatherers could have tackled on any reasonable scale, but that is a subject that would require as much conjecture as reasearch, so I dont officially raise it. I will add, though, that my concesion is not complete agreement at this stage, as I do not shift my stance without first doing more reading than I am capable of at this time.
As to man-hours, I reaffirm my assertions and counter that it is you who are, in fact, wrong. Generalizing here is incorrect given the massively different environments and food potentials that different peoples lived in and interacted with, but time is short and this isnt exactly the place for a long, drawn out argument concerning anthropology, so hell. 4 hours spent daily per person aquiring food is MASSIVE in comparison to that spent by peoples invovled in agriculture. I am talking about how useful, in an economic perspective, their time was. A farmer might spend 10 hours a day farming, but his efforts could feed far more people than the equivalent work of a hunter/gatherer.
I WISH I had the time where I am right now to actually devote a few days to real work and find some good, peer-reviewed sources to bring together. If you insist on keeping your whimsical stance that hunter/gatherers were in any real way better off, I might even have to do so after I get back to the States. It would be a bit of re-inventing the wheel, as the VAST majority of anthropological work agrees that the movement from hunting and gathering to agriculture was an incredibly positive movement for mankind. If you want to pick-and-pull items from the whole and say that those living in agricultural socieites were sicker and shorter (correct statements) then you are being intillectually dishonest by not also including the overwhelmingly positive developments that leaving behind nomadic life brought.July 2, 2011 at 8:04 pm #14060
computers were initially just for the rich. cell phones were just for the rich (in the 80′s). lots of products and services start out being only for rich people. LETS ASSUME there are rich people in the world (which there are, many). How could we design a seasteading destination community for the economic titans of the world? what amenities would they need/want to have? how far out would it be? DP or moored? what form factor? how many people? how much space per person? Should we start the design process with a target budget per bed? how would it be run? how would the rules be upheld?
very important: how would we ‘brand’ it , for mass market appeal? if we can get into the game early, we could stand to make a huge amount of money over time and yes, be able to afford our own living space aboard.
i propse a bergstead the size of ‘Nkossa’ thatwould have recreational space on top and a few level of living space below. We need to start with people who have money, and then work to make it as affordable as possible.. not the other way around.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”July 3, 2011 at 12:49 am #14062
have 250′ mega-yachts for “seasteads”. http://www.bing.com/images/results.aspx?q=mega+yacht&form=MSNH14&qs=n&sk=&sc=8-9#x0y0. What will your bergstead offer to them? They have everyting. If a seastead would have been one of their “neccesities”, be assured that they would have build themselves one long time ago….
Seasteading is synonymous with ocean colonization, not with “lets build something on the water and sell it to the rich ones for profit”.
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