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Concrete Mix.

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Concrete Mix.

This topic contains 33 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 2 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #11009
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Yes, its frustating.

    No, its not financial. Money is here. We all have some sort of money. If we pull, the capital is here.

    Its organizational.

    #11010
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    Yes, its frustating.

    No, its not financial. Money is here. We all have some sort of money. If we pull, the capital is here.

    Its organizational.

    I’m not really sure what you mean.

    Seems pretty well organised to me.

    What I think will let us grow,

    is self-replicating atom-tribes.

    I’m actively in the process,

    of creating such a tribe.

    I’m sure a bunch of you have boats.

    If you’d like to seastead, then simply live on the anchor.

    Preferably witha ferrocement hull of course.

    outfit your boat so it’s comfortable to do so,

    get some friends anchoring out with you,

    can do some activities,

    resource acquistion and construction,

    with the goal in mind of replicating the tribe,

    as in building more boats outfitted comfortably,

    and getting more people living on the water.

    this is how a cell functions,

    it aquires resources, like energy and materials,

    then it produces extra organelles,

    when it has at least a pair of each,

    then it splits, which is replication.

    the “male tribe” provides some plans (dna),

    and some resources for tribe (members or materials).

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11014
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    about seasteading won’t build seasteads or make seasteading happen. Knowing the Path and Walking on the Path are two different things. We seem to know the path. As Farmer well said it “….. is really no engineering left to do.” That’s called Knowing the Path. Ferrocement built mobile, modular, floating platform seasteads. That’s the Path.

    Organizational meant Walking on the Path= forming an investment group and rising capital. Yes, the MONEY is here. Yes, we all have some SORT of money. What I meant is that some have less and some have more. But what both have in common is the dream of seasteading, which is a constant. So, all this like minded individuals shud start talking dollars and sense now if they really want to seastead. Whats a reasonable amount that’s acceptable for the “have less” and for the “have more” to contribute towards the initial investment capital to start seasteading? How many “ready to move now” shud be there to start with? You tell me….or, let me tell you and see if we agree.

    @ least 20 and @ least $ 5000 a piece as initial investment. And thats only a minimum to get your foot into the door,…Now 20 “seasteaders” have a working capital of $100k! Have a drink! A small step for man but a big leap for seasteading! After the initial eupforia,…whats next? Well, get organized, AGAIN. 2 Teams:

    1. The Design & Construction Team. Responsible for finalizing the design of the Module, plan of forms, stability letter, CAD, etc, ready to go with “every nut and bolt in the right place” and a realistic estimate of the construction costs.
    2. The Marketing & Sales Team. Responsible for website design, advertising, marketing and finding / implementig ways of financing the project.

    If both team do their job right, we’re up to somthing. Then, start building the first Module. The “floor model”. Finish, launch and start operate. Expend from there.

    If that’s what you called a “self-replicating atom-tribe”, I’m all for it.

    Now, living @ anchor rafted up w/ other boaters, its nice and fun. Been there done that. But it will last directly proportional to the size of your savings account. After that, is back on land and get a job. We shud try to avoid the last part. This shud be the key aspect of seasteading. Make money WHILE having fun in the sun, rafted up @ anchor. Then is “anchor ahoy” heading “south” for a new adventure. And, YES, we shud keep on making money while we do that, too.

    Unless, you Elspru are filthy rich and willing to foot the whole bill. But even rich, who would like to “seastead” by him/herself?

    I dont know nothing about you or the other people who are posting here. I am not rich, but I have “some sort of money”. I can come up with $5k, for know.

    #11015
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    about seasteading won’t build seasteads or make seasteading happen. Knowing the Path and Walking on the Path are two different things. We seem to know the path. As Farmer well said it “….. is really no engineering left to do.” That’s called Knowing the Path. Ferrocement built mobile, modular, floating platform seasteads. That’s the Path.

    We’re part way there. 1/3 perhaps.

    if the second is construction,

    and the third is celebration of manifestation.

    Organizational meant Walking on the Path= forming an investment group and rising capital. Yes, the MONEY is here. Yes, we all have some SORT of money. What I meant is that some have less and some have more. But what both have in common is the dream of seasteading, which is a constant. So, all this like minded individuals shud start talking dollars and sense now if they really want to seastead. Whats a reasonable amount that’s acceptable for the “have less” and for the “have more” to contribute towards the initial investment capital to start seasteading? How many “ready to move now” shud be there to start with? You tell me….or, let me tell you and see if we agree.

    @ least 20 and @ least $ 5000 a piece as initial investment. And thats only a minimum to get your foot into the door,…Now 20 “seasteaders” have a working capital of $100k! Have a drink! A small step for man but a big leap for seasteading! After the initial eupforia,…whats next? Well, get organized, AGAIN. 2 Teams:

    1. The Design & Construction Team. Responsible for finalizing the design of the Module, plan of forms, stability letter, CAD, etc, ready to go with “every nut and bolt in the right place” and a realistic estimate of the construction costs.
    2. The Marketing & Sales Team. Responsible for website design, advertising, marketing and finding / implementig ways of financing the project.

    If both team do their job right, we’re up to somthing. Then, start building the first Module. The “floor model”. Finish, launch and start operate. Expend from there.

    Ahem.. we already have that, for free, and with a lot more money.

    TSI administration is the marketing and sales team.

    Wheras this forum is the Design team.

    If that’s what you called a “self-replicating atom-tribe”, I’m all for it.

    Now, living @ anchor rafted up w/ other boaters, its nice and fun. Been there done that. But it will last directly proportional to the size of your savings account. After that, is back on land and get a job. We shud try to avoid the last part.

    yes, because remember, the land lubbers are all foreigners.

    Do you go to another country every time you want some cash?

    Of course not, you have to have a local exchange medium.

    I’ve talked about dinje and price barter calculation before.

    This shud be the key aspect of seasteading. Make money WHILE having fun in the sun, rafted up @ anchor. Then is “anchor ahoy” heading “south” for a new adventure. And, YES, we shud keep on making money while we do that, too.

    money?

    So giving people gifts,

    and then selling their debt to others.

    Sure we can do that, though it’s optional.

    Don’t see any plants or animals doing that.

    All we really need, is water, food and shelter.

    All of which we could provide ourselves, by foraging,

    can also seed or provide nutrients to have stable sources,

    just as all other plants and animals do on this planet.

    We only need foreigners currency,

    when we want to get something only foreigners have.

    Food and water is aplenty.

    Can make a watermaker,

    it could use excess heat,

    from cement furnace.

    can fish for food, or forage on vacant land,

    can also make mini agricultural plots on vacant land.

    Unless, you Elspru are filthy rich and willing to foot the whole bill. But even rich, who would like to “seastead” by him/herself?

    I dont know nothing about you or the other people who are posting here. I am not rich, but I have “some sort of money”. I can come up with $5k, for know.

    I live on welfare in a subsidised apartment.

    I have $2000 saved up, and $500 in the bank.

    Planing on getting a ferrocement boat as soon as possible.

    Am going to see a boat this sunday,

    parents might lend me a $1000,

    So I could buy it in full.

    Can outfit it with various sustainable things,

    like windmill, passive engine, ceramic furnace.

    Though first I’ll have to get a bruce anchor and canoe.

    For getting foreigners currency:

    could offer beach people rides on the sailboat,

    could do some delivery jobs perhaps,

    can sell things produced on the boat.

    such as ceramic bowls and cups.

    For community:

    Can organize events with other boaters.

    Already registered on ic.org as an intentional community (We You Net).

    So there are applicants trickling in,

    once we’re on the water it’ll be more viable.

    Can simply get a boat, to join a floating community.

    Typically can get a boat for under 5k.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11016

    Ocean, the last person who “talked to me seriously” about building the biggest possible concrete shell structure having a 100K budget available – ended up to be the owner of this one…and we did it in budget. (331euro/ton).

    …but we are on the “concrete mix” thread here – to keep it easy for others to follow i would suggest we discuss this further on a seperate thread…could be the “apply concrete shell seasteading” or another newly opened “budget and start” thread…

    …in general i am friend of direct personal responsibilities – not “design teams” and “implementation teams” – i like efficiency …

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11017
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I said that $100k its the minimum to get your foot into the door, meaning a budget to start up. Then we can talk about how big, where, when, how and how much.

    Thinking that a team is less efficient than an individual its your prerogative. I am neighter pro or against. It is a relative matter, I guess. I will start a “Seasteading start up budget” thread.

    #11023
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant

    Soliciting donations is an ineffective means of raising capital for this sort of project.

    -Budget construction,

    -Get bonded,

    -Sell real estate/ownership of module.

    If the design is a community of modules requiring standardization: pursue the ownership & group purchase route.

    If it’s a large superstructure: sell real estate/leases/stock/shares.

    The non-profit model is appropriate for grants and research only.

    People who want to see seasteading become a reality should be writing business plans, and proceeding with one of the above.

    This forum represents a marketing opportunity, and the demand is there.

    They will come. Can you build it? Will “it” be a price the market will bear?

    #11125
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    I’d like to mention an interesting new update in concrete mixtures.

    Apparently some microbes can bond together sand into stone,

    concrete mixtures with clay, sand, cement and bacillus pasteurii can be self-healing

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/marble-sand-calcium-chloride-urea-and-bacillus-pasteur

    P.S.

    I read that freezing and unfreezing high-ash cement may have detrimental effects.

    So it’s best to keep ash-content 25% of cement or less.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #11169
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    for cheaply reinforcing structures,

    consider alternative reinforcement like wood,

    here is a thread on reinforcing concrete with bamboo:

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/bamboo-reinforced-concrete

    Also note that great roman structures were made of unreinforced concrete,

    also seashells are made of unreinforced calcium carbonate.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #13108
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    in case I haven’t mentioned it already, baking soda is terrible for concrete, it leaches just like salt, leaving leaky voids.

    main update, is about how canoe competitions have lead to many innovations in concrete mixing.

    Including floating concrete 800kg/m^3,

    a low-density, hollow, sodium borosilicate microsphere aggregate for making it float

    polypropylene fibers, micro-cracking prevent,

    Acrylic Mortar Latex for tensile strength,

    full pdf document source can be accessed here:

    http://www.concretecanoe.org/TipsandStrategy/Carnivale.pdf

    I’m also interested in perhaps using aero-gel it’s very low-denisty and has good insulative properties.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #13111
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Baking soda does 2 things, in cement. It creates CO2 voids and, being a salt, it makes it more prone to water damage (BiCarbonate of Soda aka Sodium BiCarbonate).

    One of the inherent problems with added fibers is the inevitable exposure of some, often many fibers. This does more than look bad. Exposed fibers represent lost reinforcement, added drag and increased attachment points for unwanted passengers (sea-life).

    Some admixtures lower the freezing point of the cement, others delay setting, still others speed the setting… Not only that, but admixtures can interact badly, much like negative drug interactions, and render the cement useless. That’s where experts come in… I am NOT an expert. I know much, but I also know that I do NOT know enough (at least from my point of view)…

    Woven fabric filled and covered with cement, is what you have described, from the concrete-canoe site. I would suspect that you can experiment with potato sacks satisfactorily, at small scale, but it would not be useful at live-aboard size, due to its’ weaknesses. I suspect it would fail at canoe size, as well.

    Have you researched the ferrocement threads on here? A lot of useful information to be gathered!

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #13734
    Avatar of Morganism
    Morganism
    Participant

    here is a great reference for the Aerogels.

    http://www.aerogel.org/

    might also want to look up Aluminum Foam tech. we were looking at it for space uses.

    #15135
    Avatar of GShydroman
    GShydroman
    Participant

    Hello All,

    Interesting conversations on this Forum and I’d like to contribute too! My background is in Architecture and Project Management and I have been in Land Development since 1987. Over those years of the past I have learned a few things about Design, Construction, Due Diligence, Cost Analysis, Property Survey, Estimating, Project Management, Engineering etc.

    Concrete is a great way to build a hull of significant size and strength to achieve and shotcrete or gunite would be the method of choice for me personally. When you order the mix design in the specification , you can work with the Engineering Experts / Consultants who specialize in that field. That’s what they do for a living and there experience is immeasurable to get the desired results and exact figures for engineering purposes.

    There are many Admixtures and reinforcing methods to be considered in the design and it is best to talk to the Pro’s.

    Earth in forming would be the most cost effective assuming you can find a site in CA to do it. EPA, Fish and Game, Water Resource Board, Board of Reclamation, Coastal Commission all come into play! ( AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH )

    Adding to the Mix:

    Rock On – Aggregates that have been used since Roman Times include: Pumice which is used today in Light Weight Concrete – LWC This would be preferable to the Upper Decks and Super Structure. You can build Decks from Steel Truss with Metal Deck and LWC over the top of the to achieve a light weight floor and bracing for your hull.

    Around the block – The Perimeter of the hull should include steel mesh for Tensile Strength which concrete has very little. I like the idea of Polymer Strands or Fiberglass Stands to achieve this important Engineering aspect of Concrete Construction, the need for Tensile Loads to be considered.

    For Stability’s sake: The Hull should have a design that can stabilize itself and self righting for stormy weather. A keel with flood able chambers would allow you to adjust the depth and overturning moment of the design. The dome shape is the strongest shape for this and would withstand crashing waves over the top.

    Thanks to all for this conversation and looking forward to many more!

    PS This is my first Post

    Jerdog

    -

    #15140
    Avatar of georgeberz
    georgeberz
    Participant

    Jerdog…

    Have you looked at PVA for enhancing concrete?

    http://www.kuraray-am.com/pvaf/index.php

    George http://outpostalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=97

    #15141
    Avatar of GShydroman
    GShydroman
    Participant

    georgeberz wrote:

    Jerdog…

    Have you looked at PVA for enhancing concrete?

    http://www.kuraray-am.com/pvaf/index.php

    George http://outpostalpha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=97

    Hey Geo..

    I checked the site out and YES this will work well, but I would add larger sections of Polymer Cables to add strength to the major stress points of the structure such as intersections of the Geo-Dome or Arched Roof / Paraboloid / Bucky Ball type of Hull and Super Structure. Given that your structure is constantly in motion and the stresses can accumulate in different areas depending on the Weather and Sea conditions. All of the structures shown are Static Design which is allot less involved as far as stress, strain and torque.

    However, they are claiming up to 30,000 PSI strength and that is basically close to solid stone. The flexibility spread throughout the structure is a big plus and with the use of these fibers is highly desirable, due to the Dynamic Design of the Loads. In other words a sum of all the small pieces spread throughout the Hull / Superstructure is added insurance for cracking which concrete is inclined to do when expanded, contracted, tensioned, torqued, impacted and all the rest including corrosion over time.

    I did read the other thread you have on the Geodesic and I really like the concept. My thoughts are that a more Hydrodynamic shaped Hull would allow a few benefits such as Draft, Mobility, Stability. With Mobility on the top of my list. I want to be able to move around the Planet ( Doggy Paddle ) or at a very leisurely 3 to 5 Kt or so and be able to control direction while underway. So, using the concept you have just longer, flatter and more organic in shape, like a Hyperbolic Paraboloid shape ( James Bond ) and with Turbines, Solar, Dynamic Positioning ( No Mooring Fees ) , More usable space because the roof isn’t as steep. But you do get all the benefits of the Dome/Parabolic shape for strength and the Mono Pour Structure ( Labor and Materials ) are greatly reduced due to the thin shell with such a high structural module.

    You could use Air Bags for the Upper Super Structure Forms – Inflate and Pour over the top, deflate and your done my friend!

    PS Buy your own SAND that is Classified, Washed and Sorted, no sense in skimping on the basic parts! I don’t tread water very well and this is of Primary concern.

    Thanks for your post, I’m enjoying this conversation. Time to put it on paper and crunch some numbers! It is the MOST COST EFFECTIVE form for guys like you and I who ain’t billionaires…YET HA HA

    TTFN

    Jerdog

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