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Comfort at sea – seasteading experiments -

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Comfort at sea – seasteading experiments -

This topic contains 6 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Melllvar Melllvar 4 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 7 posts - 1 through 7 (of 7 total)
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  • #1133

    It is obvious that one of the core questions for seasteading is the question how to create “comfort at sea” – vince – said on the OSDI thread that “there has been very few practical experiments about this topic” – is this true ?

    Can we have a update on experiments done and still to do for “creating comfort at sea” … in general there has been efforts in the following directions:

    1) Efforts to make vessels broad and flat: ( modern cruisehips, the nkossa barge, the waterwalker, catamaran boats, multihulls, the floating lens island )

    2) Efforts to submerge: ( wave piercer design, spar design, semisubmersibles, submarines)

    3) Efforts to eliminate waves: (Creation of floating breakwaters, living breakwaters, pelamis fields)

    Did i miss some?

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #8968
    Avatar of libertariandoc
    libertariandoc
    Participant

    Modern cruise ships seem a bad model: They’re appallingly top heavy, and rely on stabilizer systems for their stability. Further, they rarely encounter rough weather, their Captains go to a lot of effort to stay out of bad weather.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I won’t be wronged. I won’t be insulted. I won’t be laid a-hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.

    #8970
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    It is obvious that one of the core questions for seasteading is the question how to create “comfort at sea” – vince – said on the OSDI thread that “there has been very few practical experiments about this topic” – is this true ?

    What I said was, “I think the only big problem with moving to international waters is how to design an affordable structure that is safe and comfortable in those waves (assuming you can telecommute).” Affordable and safe are key parts to that quote that you should not leave out.

    I have also said I am the only one that has tested a seastead model in waves and posted video. The point is that this group is not doing experiments to advance seaseading. Do you understand and agree?

    — Vince

    #8971

    libertariandoc

    I agree completly, cruisships are designed for mobility and hospitality business, the interesting part is, that they are ships, going away from the classical ship shape, due to comfort requirement in waves. Their underwater part is flat and broad like a barge. So in some sense we can see them as an “experiment to create a comfortable shapes for the open ocean” – which is interesting in the sense of seasteading. The nkossa barge is probably a better and more advanced example (for the flat and angular design) as it skips mobility and focuses more on the “maintenance free long term stay” aspect that seasteads will need.

    vincecate

    I did not want to answer your “call for experiments” at the OSDI thread as it is important to “stick to the thread themes” to allow us follow the discussions properly. I agree completly that experiments are a key factor in any new development. I agree that we should have a clear strategy what kinds of experiments we should do.

    Your waterwalker is a adaption of the “catamaran design” for seasteading ( going away from mobility ) i find it clever and it is a great way to stabilize light platforms in relative big waves at a moderate cost. Have you ever thought to bring the platform down to the waterlevel so you can build a heavy house on it supported by the boyancy of the platform and leave the legs as long thin structures floating on surface like a seastar, giving you the “anti rolling” capacity of a much bigger platform. I would call it the seastar platform.

    #9128
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    Not to be crass, but the Cruise ships ARE a good model for comfort, just not a good model for sea-worthiness. Check the stateroom layouts… The Bedrooms and bathrooms that fit your lifestyle are worth the effort to look at. In addition, look at luxury yachts. The layout is designed around someones idea of comfort at sea. Look at the successful live-aboard sailing vessels, as well as RV’s. Cut and paste what you think will work for you. How would you re-arrange your house/apartment? Try simulating the designs you choose. Are the ergonomics good for you?

    Also, look at housing for the elderly/handicapped. It’s usually very well thought-out.

    I know what design I would use, but I don’t know how to find it, on-line. It was a demo-home office/apartment. It’s in my head, but I don’t really know how to describe it, or draw it up on a computer…

    One mans comfort is another mans prison. Find something you like and try that.

    #9130
    Avatar of Eelco
    Eelco
    Participant

    Comfort in this context is meant with respect to motion characteristics.

    I agree with your classification, Ellmer. Those are basically the options (or some mix thereof).

    Predicting what kind of vessel will experience what kind of motion is not necessarily something you need to test, but something you can get a pretty accurate feel for using computer simulation, or extrapolation from existing analyzed structures.

    The very interesting open question in this regard is the human factor: what kind of motions are tolerable? Quite some research has been done on the subject, but one question I have not been able to answer from reading literature: it is generally observed that people adapt strongly to motion sickness over the course of several weeks. Accurate data exists for the incidenceof seasickness for a given amount of motion for people not having had prior exposure, but I have not ben able to find any quantative data as to what the difference over time is.

    If someone has a pointer to information on that subject, thatd be very helpful (maybe you use some critical search keyword I missed). Having to judge the performance of seasteads by the available criteria of people without prior exposure might be far too conservative, as far as semi-permanent residents are concerned. If there is a factor two difference between people with and without exposure, that would make a huge difference as far as the viability of many concepts is concerned.

    #9176
    Avatar of Melllvar
    Melllvar
    Participant

    I’m not aware of any significant comfort experiments. In that regard I agree with Vince that very little is being done to experiment with new designs, comfortable or otherwise. Of course, no one is obligated to do any particular thing, and many of us are not in a position to immediately begin testing SFS prototypes. But agreed it would be nice to see more hands on work getting done by the community (and yes, it is hypocritical of me to say this).

    Eelco wrote:
    Having to judge the performance of seasteads by the available criteria of people without prior exposure might be far too conservative, as far as semi-permanent residents are concerned. If there is a factor two difference between people with and without exposure, that would make a huge difference as far as the viability of many concepts is concerned.

    Regarding comfort to at sea though, there are people who never get seasick. It seems like a shame at this early stage to discount designs just because too high a fraction of the passengers may get seasick, especially for smaller seastead designs. Those designs could still have a market in the people who don’t, and if I can get a SFS sooner and cheaper and just put up with greater rolling motions, I’m all for it. I’m sure others who don’t get seasick would agree. Consider that an early seastead, particularly a SFS, could be as bad for seasickness as any ship, the first people to live on it would have to accept that, and unfortunately people who are prone to seasickness may want to wait for a second generation model.

    Not saying we shouldn’t try and design the most comfortable seasteads, but as I see it seasickness (and all forms of comfort to a larger extent) is a a mere inconvenience for only some, not a requirement for all.

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