February 8, 2009 at 4:33 am #4887
Aye… single hull ships will be relatively inexpensive, and they will be large enough to retrofit to many causes. If there was enough money to buy an island, and the engineering for seasteading-specific dwellings hadn’t been worked out yet, buying used cargo ships like this would be my suggestion. Closest thing to seasteading as you can get (cuz, well… you kinda are.)February 8, 2009 at 11:12 pm #4895
While I like the incrementalist aspect and am in favor of things that improve that, I am very skeptical of doing stuff on land claimed by existing nations. Especially a nation with significant navy and air force. Seems like asking for trouble to do anything that threatens their existing sovereignty.
Being remote means they pay less attention, but it also makes things operationally and economically more difficult. The CoastStead strategy places us close enough to existing countries that they may care what we do, but with the reward of tens of millions of customers a short boat ride away. Clipperton Island reduces the engineering difficulties substantially, but has major economic and political disadvantages.
If we are going to work with a government, lets work with a desperate government like the Maldives, or a poor government like Tuvalu. Someplace that needs new economic models.February 9, 2009 at 3:29 am #4899
I agree that France/Clipperton may not be the best choice. If we wanted to pursue the remote island strategy, we should start by drawing up a list of such islands, and trying to decide which ones would offer the best political/economic environment.
My underlying belief is that France doesn’t care that much about Clipperton, or could be negotiated with. There might be benefits for them. Maybe France wants its own version of Cayman or Hong Kong. Maybe we’d just have to agree to learn French. There might be benefits for US – as I noted, having a large country take care of defense for you might be a pretty good setup in the early years.
Maybe we need a larger discussion, and some wiki pages, about incrementalism and strategy. How do we get from being a bunch of guys talking on a web forum to being a real group running a real micronation? I don’t know what the CoastStead strategy means exactly, but ClubStead seems to depend highly on getting significant venture capital.March 16, 2009 at 12:57 am #5193
hum…I’m sorry to say that on my first post but I really don’t think that the Clipperton option is a good idea at all for several reasons:
first because of french laws: you’re right there are specific teritories (the overseas territories of France) where the french law is “adapted” to specific local conditions: for example the french polynesia has specific tax laws, that’s why it’s often considered as a tax haven. BUT the french constitution is the same for all the french teritories, including Clipperton. And the Constitution is very clear about that kind of questions:
Article 1: France is a laic, democratic, social and indivisible republic.
Article 53: No cession of teritorry is possible without the consent of the concerned populations
There are also specific texts about Clipperton: the Island is under the specific control of the french secreteray of state for overseas teritories because of the fragility of the environement. And all the law and rules of the french republic are enforceable in the island (Law of the 27/01/2007).
This kind of rules are made because the overseas territories are VERY important for the french republic: France possesses the second largest EEZ int the world just behind the USA according to wikipedia. The EEZ is very important for shipping, military influence…..Another argument: There are lot of french territories (overseas territories of french polynesia, new caledonia or guadalupe and mainland territories of corsica, brittanny and the basque country) with independant revendications. because of this they (the french government) look very carefully about every independent/autonomious revendication, even for an unusual island like Clipperton: this couldconstitute for them a very dangerous precedent for the rest of the country. Even if the island is unhabited, there are french military ships all over the world, they can probably be in clipperton in less than one week from tahiti…
Another thing: Clipperton is a very specific island, it’s not like all this atolls in french polynesia, it’s an atoll with a very fragile environment and that’s why every construction is forbidden, that’s why nobody lives here and that’s why the only people who are allowed to come in Clipperton are scientifics, with a clear and legal reason to come in the island (commandant cousteau has been in Clipperton for example).I don’t think that they will allow anybody to come to the island in order to try an alternative way of life. you can try to send a mail to the secretary of state for the overseas territories or to the high commissionner in french polynesia but I really think that it’s useless, and I think that going there without any permit is just madness…
A last thing: This Island is a shit! very small, without anything, SO isolate, I really don’t think that, even when you don’t look at all the others aspects, it’s a good place for the “island adventure”.
For me, if you really want to do something like that, there are 2 options: First you go in a small island isolate BUT with few aspects of civilazation, like Pitcairn for example, maybe you can contact the people of pitcairn and ask them for the adventure, they are something like 50 people living in pitcairn and it’s one of the most isolate island in the world….The second option is much more expensive: you can buy an island like marlon brando did in the french polynesia: he was under french law, but he was in his island, doing more or less what he wanted to do and this island wasn’t an inferno like Clipperton…isolated but really connected to civilization(tahiti island with the capital of french polynesia papeete at something like 500km from his island)
That’s all and that’s just my point of view!
Excuse me for ALL the mistakes that I must have done in this post, as you can see I’m not fluent in english….March 16, 2009 at 3:08 am #5194
sometimes some people junk is other’s treasure. I did post is as an interesting find,to be honest w/u,..BUT is the only atoll so close to the continent and if u chech the other 2 post w/ the photos the coral reef around it is very nice. I think that Clipperton is a diamond in the rough. The french dont give a s—- about Clipp and actually it became a joke, that Clipp represent the defunct French overseas possesions. I do agree w/u that is small and all coral and nothing there,BUT(again)lets say,…. 20 mil$ later, open that stagnant lagoon, terra form a little,very enviroment friendly and bang,…u have a PRIMO eco-tourism destination w/gorgeous reefs for snorkling & diving,plenty of tuna fishing and fun in the sun.Oh la,la,….March 16, 2009 at 2:23 pm #5202
The fact that it’s all or mostly coral is actually kind of a problem. Opening the lagoon would require the destruction of quite a bit of coral, which puts us up against lots and lots of environmentalists. It also kinda rules out ‘eco-tourism’ in the sense that it’s not all that ecologically friendly to simply plow under 1-2% (or more) of the island’s reef, just to open it up for our private use as a harbor. This is pretty unlikely to be allowed anyways, considering the fact that they don’t even want people building anything there, much less ripping out tracts of land and living coral. That doesn’t even take into account that part of what makes the island unique is the fact that the lagoon has been fully enclosed for so long. Opening it up would completely change the ecosystem as sea life from the open ocean would be reintroduced.
If any use of the island is feasible for this project, it would have to be as a temporary ‘scientific/social’ experiment. (and even that seems unlikely to be allowed here) If all our structures are floating inside the lagoon, that prevents us from needing to ‘build’ anything that disturbs the land significantly. These are the sorts of points in our favor we’d have to look for in pitching the idea to the french government. Between the small (non-existant) footprint and the potential for more in-depth research into the local ecosystem, it might pass as a research project. Obviously this is a bit of a compromise from what some people are envisioning for this island, but I’m afraid that’s about the only way there’s even a chance here.
Besides, if we had $20 million (or whatever it would actually cost to do this) it could be used to either build all or most of a Clubstead size structure or to build 5 or more family sized seasteads (depending on the design).March 16, 2009 at 5:10 pm #5208
will destroy mostly dead coral (the one above the sea level) and very little live one.(fact) By opening the lagoon fresh sea water will be running in @every high tide.This will bring more oxigen in helping the regrowth of coral inside the lagoon. Yes the ecosystem will change w/fish coming in,etc,but this will only be for the better. Opening the lagoon will only be for this reason, and secondary for creating a small shelterd harbour. The coral population is un really,I really mean really,bad shape but the public @ large doesnt know that,….The perfect example is here back home in the Florida Keys. From Key Largo to Key West all the way down to the Dry Tortuga I have seen miles and miles of dead and damaged reef while snorkling down there. All that because of our actions but mostly becaouse of our inaction. Where i am going w/this is that @ this point in time inaction is more damaging that action,…I was really (unpleasanlly) surprised that a majority of americans dont even know that we have one (out of 2) coral reefs in the Northen Hemishere (the other one is in the Belize), right here in our back yard. And is dying…. Other than that I do agree w/u. The French wont alow anything to happen there, maybe just for the reason that they really dont care….(but one never knows). Yes a reserch project is more like it. About the 20 mil,…:-),…If I’d had it i would spend 9 mil. (after spending, read – “bribing”-1 mil on the French goverment to get their ok) on Clipperton just for the heck off it , to prove I’m right. The rest I’d built my own seastead.March 16, 2009 at 6:11 pm #5210
Oh, please: That atoll is one storm away from disaster….
And there isn’t much that could be experimented on it that couldn’t be done just as well elsewhere.March 16, 2009 at 11:25 pm #5216
dude.April 3, 2009 at 9:25 am #5412
I have not read the rest of this thread, but there are no islands that are not already claimed by some nation. If you try to set up a settlement on Clipperton Island, the country that owns the island will come and take you away or kill you.May 6, 2009 at 3:16 pm #5877
speaking of french islands why not kerguelen island its 400sqmiles
the only down side is the weather but there might be hott springsMay 6, 2009 at 9:18 pm #5880
This site lists various private islands for sale. Most of the ones I’ve seen are from developed, probably meddlesome countries (USA, Japan) that wouldn’t take kindly to a new, unregulated community. Still, I haven’t searched in depth, and some come with neat rights. For instance, Sanda Island (Scotland) lets you mint your own coins and call yourself “Laird.” Still, money’s an issue. Hope this helps anyway.May 7, 2009 at 12:42 pm #5883
I am familiar w/Vladi’s website. I did extensive research on the island subjeact, related to the “basesteading” concept. Vladi is a bit expensive. I ran into some local realestate broker in Belize who is selling 5 acres, dry land, w/ 400 feet lagoon front, on an island located right on the reef for $85,000.00 asking price. Lagoon_front.jpg, Location_2.jpg, Location.jpg. There is an effort here, by few of us, Pastor Jason beeing very involved and interested (myself too), to buy into this property and start a Seasteading Outpost there as a business. See Seasteading Outpost: Belize . Ahoy, O.
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