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CITIZENSHIP

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This topic contains 31 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of i_is_j_smith i_is_j_smith 2 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 32 total)
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  • #1552
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    It seems like the most important problem to address – before even thinking about rules, laws, how its governed or anything else – the most important problem is “Who is allowed to be a citizen”?

    one MAJOR difference that i think we are ignoring is that every spot on every habitat (whether ocean-going or in space) MUST be bought and paid for by somebody. in the U.S. all you have to do is be born on our soil and you automatically enjoy full citizenship. this CANNOT be allowed in a completely closed system – not the way it is now. there is no way they can let everyone have sex of their own free will and make as many babies as they want.

    so i think the most important thing to address in any discussion about governance is, “HOW do you grant citizenship”? in my opinion, this is one thing that made America much stronger than the rest of the world for the first few centuries. For many years a huge percent of the population had to buy a ticket to cross the Atlantic ocean, and then they actually had to survive the journey. then they were all checked for fitness by immigration.

    how would you prefer to grant citizenship? would higher education prevent too many babies?

    (remember that many US citizens dont even willfully like this country and actively undermine it)

    (check old posts for prior discussions)

    #14146
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    Citizenship is open to everyone and no Citizen Captain, Subject Citizen or adult Subject may be discriminated against or privileged on the basis of age, creed, faith, language, origin, parentage, race, sex, or prior state of nobility or immanence (VI.3.6.). Citizen Captains are human beings, natural persons who have attained the age of adulthood and who have assumed and accepted the duty and responsibility as Captain of a vessel. 16 is the age of Adulthood and a Vessel is defined as being 20.5’ or longer at the water line. In other words you have to have a boat. Subject Citizens are human beings, natural persons who have attained the age of 21 years, who have assumed and accepted the duty and responsibility as Heads of Households and who dwell on Ships or Seastations. In other words, in order to enjoy the benifit of having the right to vote you have to have and support a family and live on/in a ship or multi-family seastead. The Head of a Household is a natural person who has assumed the duty and responsibility as the Primary Provider for dependent adults and/or children. A Ship is defined as a vessel 205’ or longer at the water line and a Seastation is defined as a floating platform or structure of at least 43,560 square feet fixed, anchored or otherwise keeping station at a point within the Republic’s Home Territorial Surface, at or about its Extra-Territorial Surfaces. Subjects are human beings, natural persons who are the dependants of a Citizen Captain, Subject Citizen or Subject of the Republic. The Basic Philosophy of Citizenship upon which the Oceanic Citizens Republic is based is that the Citizen Captain, having assumed the duty and responsibility of command, is solely responsible for the care, custody, safety and welfare of the human beings aboard his/her vessel. This is an indisputable fact of nature recognized and codified in International Maritime Law and the Laws of Nations and those human beings who have not assumed this duty and responsibility are not qualified too and have no right to affect the absolute right and decision-making authority of those who have. Such human beings are subject to the authority of their Captain and owe their Captain their trust and loyalty even as the Republic is owed their Captain’s trust and loyalty (I.3.1-4).

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    so all someone has to do is pull up in their own boat and tie on, they would be a citizen too?

    (if they’re 16 y.o.?)

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #14150
    Avatar of liberty90
    liberty90
    Participant

    In my opinion, every person that has property in country schould be citizen (if wants so, of course).

    wohl1917 wrote:
    who have assumed and accepted the duty and responsibility as Heads of Households and who dwell on Ships or Seastations. In other words, in order to enjoy the benifit of having the right to vote you have to have and support a family

    Arbitrary discrimination…

    #14156
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    In reality it depends on the design of the seastead itself

    For example, if it ends up being a city on a solid platform, then there is less space and more selective and harder immigration process.

    Whereas if it is a dock/marina strucutre we could keep adding more and more to make a much larger population and more relaxed immigration/citizenship laws. However there are two sides to this coin, because if after a certain point we want no more people, “border protection” (not really sure what we would call it) becomes much more difficult on this type of structure than on the platform idea (which I like better) mainly because its more city like then a bunch of boat tied toger (looks shabby and unkept)

    #14155
    Avatar of liberty90
    liberty90
    Participant

    Why wealthy person, who owns many property in country but don’t want to have childrens; shouldn’t have right to vote ?

    I don’t really like democracy, and I will understand – for example – discrimination of socialists and interventionists in matter of voting; but that discrimination in OCR’s Constitution doesn’t support liberty…

    #14157
    Avatar of liberty90
    liberty90
    Participant

    Sickor wrote:
    Whereas if it is a dock/marina strucutre we could keep adding more and more to make a much larger population and more relaxed immigration/citizenship laws.

    Immigration laws are democratic form of totalitarianism…

    Sickor wrote:
    However there are two sides to this coin, because if after a certain point we want no more people

    You may don’t want somebody in your apartment or on your other property, but what other owners do, it’s their business…

    #14161
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    liberty90 wrote:

    Sickor wrote:

    Whereas if it is a dock/marina strucutre we could keep adding more and more to make a much larger population and more relaxed immigration/citizenship laws.

    Immigration laws are democratic form of totalitarianism…

    Sickor wrote:
    However there are two sides to this coin, because if after a certain point we want no more people

    You may don’t want somebody in your apartment or on your other property, but what other owners do, it’s their business…

    [/quote]

    Ok, by “we” i mean, the people in general wanting no more. Not just me but a majority.

    Also “Immigration laws are democratic form of totalitarianism…” I dissagree, we cannot overload our seastead espcially since we will have limited resources and limited space. Were not trying to be totalitaristic, but we are not going to overpopulate the seastead and spread resources to thin just to allow extra people. As more seasteads arrise there will be more population, we cannot over do it.

    #14164
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    The Oceanic Citizens Republic is a maritime nation. Originally, only Citizen Captains had the right to vote. “Gotta’ Boat, Got the Vote!” But then it was pointed out that as the Republic grew and ships and seastations became bigger, the people on them would feel disenfranchised. After long thought and consideration I finally decided that assuming the duty and responsibility of a household, being responsible for other people, even if not on your own boat, is a big deal. You bear the inescapable Burden of Command. So, I compromised and gave them the right to vote and be appointed to offices in the government according to their aptitude. As for your wealthy person who owns property but doesn’t want a family and wants to vote, let him buy a BOAT!

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of liberty90
    liberty90
    Participant

    Sickor wrote:
    I dissagree, we cannot overload our seastead espcially since we will have limited resources and limited space.

    If space becomes limited, then prices of apartments/rooms/whatever will go up. Law of supply and demand.

    Maybe… If immigrant is too poor to buy apartment or rent room; then I could agree – he may be deported (I don’t want people living in corridors :P ). But not in any other cause, I think.

    #14173
    Avatar of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    liberty90 wrote:

    Sickor wrote:

    I dissagree, we cannot overload our seastead espcially since we will have limited resources and limited space. If space becomes limited, then prices of apartments/rooms/whatever will go up. Law of supply and demand.

    Maybe… If immigrant is too poor to buy apartment or rent room; then I could agree – he may be deported (I don’t want people living in corridors :P ). But not in any other cause, I think.

    [/quote]

    Precisely, we don’t want to be a nation full of poverty.

    #14154
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    There would be the formality of obtaining their Citizen Captains Certificate but the answer is yes, it would be that easy. There would be a nominal fee to cover the materials and like all other Citizen Captains, Subject Citizens and adult Subjects they would make the following Affirmation:“I __________________ do solemnly affirm, that I will support and defend the Constitution of the Oceanic Citizens Republic, bearing true faith and allegiance to the same, acknowledging the rights and duties contained therein.

    Liberty90: Discrimination yes, arbitrary no.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    when the ‘new world’ was first discovered, the first people to go there were sponsored by monarchs (the worlds purest repulicans – lol) and governments. eventually merchants were able to offer paid trips across the Atlantic. slowly at first, but then with much greater speed, the population in America grew. you had to either pay to come here or have somebody else pay for you. people who did not have resources to trade WERE LEFT BEHIND. and are STILL LEFT BEHIND.

    that is exactly how seasteading is going to work. the fact is, when someone who has enough money gets a strong enough urge to build a seastead (or space habitat), we already have the technology waiting for them. it just wont be cheap.
    unfortunately, there wont be any communism on seasteads. poverty is a much deadlier situation on the ocean than it is on terra firma.
    so what we need is a “Christopher Columbus” to convince someone powerful enough who can really help make it happen. Patri did a nice job with Thiel, but we need that on a whole other magnitude.

    ____________

    My work

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #14200
    Avatar of liberty90
    liberty90
    Participant

    Poverty is subjective. For example, from Kenyan point of view Mexico is very rich country.

    Cheap labor is very good for economic growth, and giving poor people chances to live better lives is morally good.

    #14230
    Avatar of Terraformer
    Terraformer
    Participant

    If people can afford to live on a Seastead, they can be a citizen. If they can’t, then they won’t be able to be one anyway. I don’t think this is going to be much of a problem – unlike a lot of people, I believe we’re going to see the equivilent of many sovereign small towns, with propulations in the low hundreds, on the ocean, rather than a few large city-states. Each is going to have a different way of running their micronation, and time will tell which works best. Which is the point – I say focus on the engineering, and let the people take care of the political experimentation.

    I’ve always prefered micronations; they allow harmless warfare…

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Seasteading is to Boat Living what Traction Cities are to Vandwelling – simply a matter of scale.

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