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The Captain Nemo float out

Home Forums Research Engineering The Captain Nemo float out

This topic contains 74 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 75 total)
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  • #15377
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    elspru wrote:

    …. I’m not able to find a source of such thick acrylic windows….

    Try stanley plastics they made the dome windows for Alicia.

    Or try blanson or try California (in Ontario) – they all made viewports for famous small submarines.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    [/quote]

    I’ve contacted them, none of them seem to have listing of sizes or prices…

    I also found an interesting website on casting resins http://users.lmi.net/~drewid/resin_faq.html

    based on it, it seems that one of the easiest to work with is epoxy, which has a long history of use in boats.

    So I’m thinking of perhaps getting some clear epoxy resin,

    and then casting some of my own windows, perhaps in some clay molds.

    some people have already made submarine like windows from clear epoxy resin.

    I think the ideal shape is a solid hemisphere, has all the stability of a solid disk, and the view-angle of a dome. Hemisphere’s also cure very well into clear plastics, based on that resin mold website.

    http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/marine/submarine_yacht_business_politics

    hey, nice list of etiquette there, I saved a copy for my records :-).

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15381
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Spru, i know these are a bit expensive but they’re kinda pre-made. They will hold for your dinghy as long as the dinghy does not dive and the panes have to be installed securely.

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202090134/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202939022

    those things r tuffer than my balls. the lexan plastic is 250x stronger than glass.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15384
    Avatar of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    Ken wrote:
    Capt.Sean wrote:

    Im pretty sure he was asking who you used for your paper weight subs but since it seems you no longer wanna fill me in as to what you have and have not done il have to assume you sir are a liar and a con.

    Capt.Sean, If you want to continue to participate in these forums you’ll knock off these kinds of comments. Wil Ellmer is a long-time and highly respected forum participant. You are a newbie who has no right to an opinion about him yet. Everyone: As Wil pointed out, this thread is specifically for the discussion of the Captain Nemo float out, so let’s keep it on track. Particularly since the forum software doesn’t support splitting threads. If you want reply but off-topic, start the reply but don’t post it. Copy and paste it into a new thread, then close the reply window. Thanks. Ken Volunteer admin, moderator, and primary spamfighter [/quote]

    Your right i shouldnt have said it in such terms and for that i am sorry i am just looking for some simple things filled in for me. maybe you could help get those for me. Id be very thankful for that. I must say that no one has the right to say if i can have an opinion about someone. I have asked some basic things that any new person would ask about what he is working on. I have stayed on topic and he is just failing to reply to the basic things i am asking.

    1.) where are these subs today. mainly the 90′s one as i understand it the new one has never been in the water and is just sitting

    2.) when he put the 90′s sub in the water how long was it there and what did it do

    3) whats inside them are they filled with the greatness he has shown in his pics of hotel lobbies and planes or just nothing

    4)what kind of motors are inside them or are there none.

    he compairs to me asking these as if they were as bad as saying the the moon landing was fakedwhich lead to the off topic chat nothing i or anyone else said he took it off topic by attacking my input and not taking them head on which has created a opinion about him.

    #15385
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    Spru, i know these are a bit expensive but they’re kinda pre-made. They will hold for your dinghy as long as the dinghy does not dive and the panes have to be installed securely.

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202090134/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202939022

    those things r tuffer than my balls. the lexan plastic is 250x stronger than glass.

    surface windows are a bit redundant considering I can just poke my head out and have a look around, though perhaps shall have some use for them at some point.

    I was only thinking of getting underwater windows. Though the more I think of it, the more I realize I should probably get the dinghy down to the lake before making further modifications, considering that anything I install now, would have to go through the arduous journey.

    The most critial element is probably the hatch or some way of making the boat water-tight, in case it falls over a dam and flips.

    having a hatch or a door, is certainly essential for a captain-nemo-float, perhaps I’ll make a plugdoor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug_door with an optional lock on it. I know what submarine doors look like, but I’m not sure how they work, does it simply lock it very tight?

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15386
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    a simple way might be to get some thick (5 mil) plastic and seal over the opening on top with some of that masonry sealant. and tie a bungie cord around it – that should get u to the lake.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15387
    Avatar of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    elspru wrote:

    having a hatch or a door, is certainly essential for a captain-nemo-float, perhaps I’ll make a plugdoor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug_door with an optional lock on it. I know what submarine doors look like, but I’m not sure how they work, does it simplyres lock it very tight?

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    Would a plug door really work since the nemo sub really wont dive so there wont be a real pressure difference

    #15391
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster
    Capt.Sean wrote:

    Your right i shouldnt have said it in such terms and for that i am sorry i am just looking for some simple things filled in for me. maybe you could help get those for me. Id be very thankful for that. I must say that no one has the right to say if i can have an opinion about someone. I have asked some basic things that any new person would ask about what he is working on. I have stayed on topic and he is just failing to reply to the basic things i am asking.

    Thread is manually split to here:
    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/research/engineering/questions-about-ellmers-concrete-submarines

    #15394

    This theme is quite tricky – all submarine viewports are made of thick cast acrylic – the resin is curing in a process that creates a LOT of heat so forms for thick walled acrylics are surrounded by a water bath to deal with that heat. The process also tends to create bubbles within the material – so the whole casting process is done in a pressure chamber. Even so bubbles appear on the contact area between form and resin – the manufactureres solv e this problem by making the piece bigger and machining it down a couple of milimeters to get rid of the bubble zone and produce a perfect transparent viewport. After that the viewport has to be heat treated to reduce tension build up – it will shrink in this process up to 10%. It also needs to be polished for hours to get a transparent surface.

    All this explains the tremendous cost of thick acrylic pieces in high optical quality. To get good results is almost an art form.

    building viewports from other plastics (epoxy, lexan) has been discussed but did not get implemented as far as i know.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine

    #15395

    The plug door is a fine solution when you deal with low pressure ambient – it brings a lot of stress into the frame when under a high pressure – so it is not usual for submarines. The most suitable hatch solution is a simple flat seal surface as you see it on phil nuyttens deepworker in the image below.

    .

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15396
    Avatar of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    The plug door is a fine solution when you deal with low pressure ambient – it brings a lot of stress into the frame when under a high pressure – so it is not usual for submarines. The most suitable hatch solution is a simple flat seal surface as you see it on phil nuyttens deepworker in the image below.

    .

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    It can hold just fine on subs. the pic you show is of someone working a sub. they are also used on airplanes and even used by nasa so unless your sub is going to the bottom of the sea they will due just fine

    #15397
    Avatar of Zephyrheart
    Zephyrheart
    Participant

    Wow… a lot has transpired since I logged off yesterday. I tried to help… guess I wasn’t too effective. Oh well! Moving on!

    I was looking into how translucent concrete is made, and with what materials. Apparently, the primary manufacturer of the stuff is LitraCon, and is composed of 96% concrete, 4% unjacketed optical glass fibers. Concrete and fiber are layered to create the composite.

    Bending strength might be affected by the parallel fibers but what counts is compression strength and it seems to be very much the same.

    You’re right. According to the Portland Cement Association (PCA) – in regards to light transmitting concrete, “The concrete mixture is made from fine materials only: it contains no coarse aggregate. The compressive strength of greater than 70 MPa (over 10,000 psi) is comparable to that of high-strength concretes.”

    What concerns light tansmission the fibers transmit light even better than normal glass, i do not think that a thin transparent layer of sealant will make a noticable difference.

    I still question this. I suppose it depends on what sealants are used. A clear sealant wouldn’t likely effect it much, but something like the Drylok that Shredder used on his bergstead model would likely block light completely.

    I would go for cast in as general desireable solution due to the uniform force flow in the hull.

    I totally agree. The only concern I see is with how to integrate it. Granted, I’ve never worked with concrete, but… The manufacturing process for translucent concrete blocks is horizontal, where if it’s put in the top of a sub, the fibers will need to be layered in vertically.

    How cheap the process can be? – i would see it very economic.

    Agreed. Compared to the costs and concerns of viewports, this is much cheaper. In fact, it could be MUCH cheaper than expected depending on materials used. What I mean is, optical fibers are not only available in glass, but also various polymer types as well. I don’t know how that would effect overall compressive strength of the concrete, but I imagine it wouldn’t effect it too badly. I’ve seen Polymer Optical Fiber (POF) as low as $0.07/foot, though that was very thin. POF can range up to over $1/foot as it gets thicker.

    Thoughts?

    #15413
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Zephyrheart wrote:

    I was looking into how translucent concrete is made, and with what materials. Apparently, the primary manufacturer of the stuff is LitraCon, and is composed of 96% concrete, 4% unjacketed optical glass fibers. Concrete and fiber are layered to create the composite.

    awesome, so we can make it ourselves, simply gotta get some unjacketed optical fibers.

    You’re right. According to the Portland Cement Association (PCA) – in regards to light transmitting concrete, “The concrete mixture is made from fine materials only: it contains no coarse aggregate. The compressive strength of greater than 70 MPa (over 10,000 psi) is comparable to that of high-strength concretes.”

    nice

    I still question this. I suppose it depends on what sealants are used. A clear sealant wouldn’t likely effect it much, but something like the Drylok that Shredder used on his bergstead model would likely block light completely.

    clear epoxy is the best, concrete-epoxy mixes are high-strength and are regularly used in concrete boat repair. Also clear-epoxy can be used to make windows easily and cheaply.

    Agreed. Compared to the costs and concerns of viewports, this is much cheaper.

    what is the price?

    In fact, it could be MUCH cheaper than expected depending on materials used. What I mean is, optical fibers are not only available in glass, but also various polymer types as well. I don’t know how that would effect overall compressive strength of the concrete, but I imagine it wouldn’t effect it too badly. I’ve seen Polymer Optical Fiber (POF) as low as $0.07/foot, though that was very thin. POF can range up to over $1/foot as it gets thicker.

    Thoughts?

    er, polymer, hmmm, glass has longer life expectancy, and much higher compressive strength typically. to increase strength of concrete can only use materials which have higher strength. though glass does have some tendency to shatter, and epoxy could be considered a polymer *shrugs*. considering it’s a window, it’s hardly a structural component, but rather a decorative one.

    However in time from the light it will yellow, and then to replace it, have to break out the concrete, and remake a new block or what not, may be better simply to have view-ports, can put these fiber-glass-concrete windows in for more privacy if you like *shrugs*, though curtains or lids might be more effective.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15414
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    The plug door is a fine solution when you deal with low pressure ambient – it brings a lot of stress into the frame when under a high pressure – so it is not usual for submarines. The most suitable hatch solution is a simple flat seal surface as you see it on phil nuyttens deepworker in the image below.

    .

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    interesting, and so is that a smooth piece of metal?, does it lock some how, or is simply very flat and heavy, and so when the water fills on top it compresses it together?

    I was thinking of something more along the lines of my pressure cooker, where the lid is screwed onto the pot, so the seal holds firm and is air-tight.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    This theme is quite tricky – all submarine viewports are made of thick cast acrylic – the resin is curing in a process that creates a LOT of heat so forms for thick walled acrylics are surrounded by a water bath to deal with that heat. The process also tends to create bubbles within the material – so the whole casting process is done in a pressure chamber. Even so bubbles appear on the contact area between form and resin – the manufactureres solv e this problem by making the piece bigger and machining it down a couple of milimeters to get rid of the bubble zone and produce a perfect transparent viewport. After that the viewport has to be heat treated to reduce tension build up – it will shrink in this process up to 10%. It also needs to be polished for hours to get a transparent surface.

    sounds doable. I’ll start with a small lens, with some conventional epoxy, and see how that goes. oh hey, I could pressure-cook it :-).

    All this explains the tremendous cost of thick acrylic pieces in high optical quality. To get good results is almost an art form.

    wow ya, I can totally understand why they are hiding the prices, they must be very high.

    could you give a ballpark figure of what they cost?

    I love artform, I’d love to develop my skill at this art,

    molding is one of those things I’m not yet skilled at in this body,

    this is kind of one of my first good excuses to foray in mold making and casting.

    building viewports from other plastics (epoxy, lexan) has been discussed but did not get implemented as far as i know.

    maybe it’s because it’s so simple,

    that middle-men are redundant,

    as in it’s not as profitable.

    The army, which has been the main maker of submarines, having an almost unlimited budget, likes to spend lavishly, using as many middle-men as possible, also why they use metal-ships. Also with military brute-strength is accentuated over longevity and sustainability.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15417

    If the theme of building of pressure and wave impact resistent windows and the theme of resin casting and translucient concrete need more discussion we can open threads of those discussions. For this forum let me bring the discussion back and let me continue to propose the “captain nemo float out” it is basicly building a “better yacht” that can stay in open ocean for long periods of time.

    Yachts can not stay in open ocean for long periods of time as the wave action makes staying there quite uncomfortable.

    Yachts are also built from materials that impose “light building” as principal design feature. This goes bad with basic seasteading needs like big tank volumes and store of big amounts of goods like food, spare parts, tools, fuel, water and similar.

    In general a yacht is built for living in a marina and make short trips of no more than a few days crossing open water in favorable weather conditions.

    We propose (and already tested) a vehicle that is the technical equivlent of a whale. A very heavy almost completly submerged body wandering worldwide at a speed of 7 knots with incredible low energy needs, capeable to live on resouces and opportunities that come up seasonally at thousands of miles distance.

    This vehicle would be about “apartment size” hold a adequate living space for a single family be equally comfortable in harbor or at open sea, avoiding wave movements by cruising most of the time in snorkel mode. It would provide “leave coffee cup on the table comfort” even in the worst imaginable sea conditions.

    It would be the “workhorse” of a new generation of ocean explorers and settlers who engage in activities like open water pod fishfarming, tuna rearing, wreck salvage, scuba tourism, mineral explotation, scientific data collection, tourism and similar.

    This workhorse would be almost completly independent of infrastructure.

    It would allow to have a lifestyle that is somewhere halfway between a yachtie, the moken, and captain nemo. It would allow to paricipate in existing yachting, use existing harbor and boating infrastructure when available. But on the long run it would work best as mobile complement of oceanic cities as proposed by seasteading.

    Discussion forum discussing the Captain Nemo Float out in detail…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15419
    Avatar of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    So are you building a metal ship like you are showing or an airplane or an under sea base or what so many random pics of things at arent yours. Please just show what you are talking a about not this mesh of random pics. Seems like some good stuff is being asked in the other thread maybe you should check it out
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