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The Captain Nemo float out

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This topic contains 74 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 75 total)
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  • #15089
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    two points to have in mind – pressure resistance of the hull. Only round hulls cooking down to an arch load case can resist pressure.

    well the deck is fiberglass, so there is room for improvement.

    Second point streamlining – a boat hull is only streamlining well when floating on its construction waterline

    hmmm, I didn’t make a water-line for my dinghy,

    though it seems to float near the rounded part.

    ooo, pretty

    On the other hand – making a surface boat dive is a bit like making a car fly – it can be done but is problably more expensive than making a airplane in first place.

    Ya, I already learned that the hardway once, by getting a “free” bike, which ended up costing me $200 in repairs, for which I could have gotten 2 new bikes.

    So i would recommend to take the boat and live there while building a dedicated sub hull.

    ya, it seems like Tony just wants some minor repairs and a paint-job.

    I’ll likely help him out, get some experience, and good karma.

    said he’ll let me sail with him if I do.

    I might just buy the 32 foot boat tried to get last-year.

    Efficient sub hulls are whale shaped not surface boat shaped.

    What do you think of the shape of my dinghy?

    I’m hoping on using it as a scaled down prototype,

    once I locate some submarine windows can put them in.

    Is there a particular kind of window you’d recommend for the nemo eyes?

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15226

    elspru wrote:

    Is there a particular kind of window you’d recommend for the nemo eyes?

    Windows (viewports) in submarines have always been acylics, other plastics occacionally come up in discussion but have never been implemented . Details about the theme go back to a guy called Stachiw ( search Stachiw acrylic viewports) -

    There are basicly 2 options, flat disc viewports and dome ports.

    Dome ports need to be changed after 10.000 load cycles for fatique reasons and are therefore only feasible on money making tourist bus submarines.

    Disc viewports with a diameter of 50 cm and some 5-10 cm thickness is what i would prefer.

    A set of eight 50cm diameter viewports in uplooking configuration gives you a nice daylight ambient inside a hull of the size and living space equivalent of a 68 squaremeter apartment. Check videos at ( light inside the hull of a captain nemo float out ).

    We all want that big panoramic window that captain nemo had. But if you think it trough a viewport like that will cost above 100K – (to compare the hull you see below costs 93K) – a plasma screen wall of the same size is a much cheaper solution and even better as you can capture images from whatever angle, infrared, and acoustic around the boat. So i would go with camara and screen for look out – and leave acrylics for “sunlight ambient” purpose only.

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15306

    A interesting way to get daylight into a concrete shell is the application of translucient concrete on the upper part of the hull. Translucient concrete is basicly concrete with embeded optic fibers.

    Light conditions in a concrete shell – 8 acrylics viewports – Videos: (here)

    Wifried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15325
    Profile photo of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    So you say getting money to fund isnt hard. Well share who your cash cow is with the rest of us. The lack of funds has put an end to the greastest ideas and slowed down the greatest minds that have walked the earth from creating. It would seem easier to just to a normal submarine. The U.S Navy takes subs out to sea for months on end without going to land ships to and they fair fine with storms they go threw. Also im having a hard time telling whats pics you have taken or just got offline. You need to post what you have done and your ideas not mix them in with others work. What kind of work have you done and are you doing. All i have seen i assume is a un finished haul in dry dock.

    #15328
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Hi Sean -welcome aboard!.

    Mr. Ellmers work was in building the black concrete sub hull, as well as a smaller sub, 1/10th of that size which is still large enough to ride in. he uses pictures for examples to help us understand the ideas he brings to the table. i doubt the USN can build their subs for $331 per ton, which is his price for these hulls.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15331
    Profile photo of Zephyrheart
    Zephyrheart
    Participant

    Great idea, Ellmer! I’d seen an exhibit on the topic, but it was for home architecture – never thought to apply it here. I have a few questions, though.

    1. How would sealants used on the concrete effect light transmission?

    2. How does adding fibers effect the concrete, strength-wise? Would the translucent area be weaker? Would it cause stress points?

    3. How would this be added to the hull? Separately in blocks, or incorporated in the pouring stage?

    4. Is this something that could be done cheaply (and locally), or would it require a separate manufacturer (and thus be more expensive)?

    Again, great idea! I’m sure this can be used somehow.

    #15335
    Profile photo of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:

    Hi Sean -welcome aboard!.

    Mr. Ellmers work was in building the black concrete sub hull, as well as a smaller sub, 1/10th of that size which is still large enough to ride in. he uses pictures for examples to help us understand the ideas he brings to the table. i doubt the USN can build their subs for $331 per ton, which is his price for these hulls.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    Thanks for the warm welcome. Ok so he has built these and sold them cause thats really cool. Id love to see the one’s he has built and sold. Where are the ones he sold and what were done with them. Why cant he use pics of the ones he made and show what they look like inside. Im sure i couldnt get a navy sub for $331 per ton but all subs are made from metal not cement. Why cement it seems like the waves and current would eat away the cement. Just seems subs of metal have been made from the civil war up till now. Its time tested, just seems that metal is the choice to be made. What is up side of using cement and not metal

    #15336
    Profile photo of Zephyrheart
    Zephyrheart
    Participant

    Capt. Sean,

    It’s good to see new people taking interest in the Seasteading community! Glad to have you! That said, it’s best to start out reading as much as you can about a topic before asking questions, as many of the questions new people have were already answered. To help guide you, here’s a couple links:

    TSI’s engineering research paper – pdf format – http://seasteading.org/files/research/TSI/engineering/Feb2011_Report_p1.pdf

    TSI Seasteading Wiki – GREAT INFO ON MANY TOPICS! – http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Main_Page

    Also, I’ve noticed that your tone has been very combative. I understand the reasoning behind your questions – I thought them myself, at first – but if you do some more digging, you’ll find the answers very quickly. Just read up on the various posts Ellmer has made. He’s very intelligent and knowledgeable on many maritime engineering topics, especially submarines. It’s good to be skeptical, but not so good to make it sound like you’re interrogating a valuable member of the community simply because you doubt his credentials.

    Bottom line is this: Research, an open mind, and a good attitude will go a long way! We appreciate your involvement and look forward to seeing what you can add to the movement.

    #15337
    Profile photo of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    Zephyrheart wrote:

    Capt. Sean,

    It’s good to see new people taking interest in the Seasteading community! Glad to have you! That said, it’s best to start out reading as much as you can about a topic before asking questions, as many of the questions new people have were already answered. To help guide you, here’s a couple links:

    TSI’s engineering research paper – pdf format – http://seasteading.org/files/research/TSI/engineering/Feb2011_Report_p1.pdf

    TSI Seasteading Wiki – GREAT INFO ON MANY TOPICS! – http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Main_Page

    Also, I’ve noticed that your tone has been very combative. I understand the reasoning behind your questions – I thought them myself, at first – but if you do some more digging, you’ll find the answers very quickly. Just read up on the various posts Ellmer has made. He’s very intelligent and knowledgeable on many maritime engineering topics, especially submarines. It’s good to be skeptical, but not so good to make it sound like you’re interrogating a valuable member of the community simply because you doubt his credentials.

    Bottom line is this: Research, an open mind, and a good attitude will go a long way! We appreciate your involvement and look forward to seeing what you can add to the movement.

    Thanks for being so nice and welcoming. Il make sure to start looking more into things before i ask thanks for the heads up and the links some real good stuff. I just wanna see these subs he has built in use i think its just a different idea and us of cement over metal. I did see on the first link it warns of cracks forming. I just wanted to see these subs in use and what they look like. If i told you i had a boat for sale would you not want to see it in the water and make sure it works vs. me showing it in dry dock and some pics of inside a airplane and saying this is what it could look like. I like the idea of subs and even saw where a guy in china made one from barrels for $3,000. Im a wanna see it kinda guy, you can throw all the numbers and stats on paper all you want but unless i can see it working doesnt mean much. Im just a hands on kinda person in life.

    #15338

    The captain nemo float out thread takes some basic knowledge about floating concrete shell structures as given. – So it is not dedicated to re-discuss the very basics – participants are supposed to be aware that we actally built, sailed and tested concrete submarine yachts during the last decades. (http://concretesubmarine.com) The thread is dedicted to discuss where we should go from there and how this is seasteading relevant…

    For a quick catch up the suggested reading list:

    Floating concrete structures basics: status of the engineering field overview 1914 – 2004

    Floating concrete shell structures: key studies

    Apply concrete shell structures in seasteading: thread
    Submerged Bubble concept in seasteading : thread
    Collection of key comments of ellmer about floating concrete concepts at seasteading.org – forums since 2009
    Condensed seasteading relevant concepts surface floats and submerged concepts:

    Wilfried Ellmer

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15339
    Profile photo of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    Thanks for writing back. Since you dont want to answer the basics i wont ask them any more.for your reading listthe first link you put up is 99% percent about in ground non sub sea building and the parts that is about ships arent real world they talk of a navy aircraft vessel that the navy gave up on. The navy does use metal ships all the time and goes out to sea for months on end. The key studies link talks about things from the 60’s,70’s,80’s and i dont know about you but i want up to date information not old data. Would you go to a doctor who was using information from the 60’s. I big problem with your idea is your using all these pics that i dont know if you made them or just took them off the internet but you claim that you have built these subs and sold them yet where are they are they just sitting in a dry dock or in your back yard or our they out in the ocean sailing full with capt nemo leading the helm. Im not calling you out or talk down to you. If i told you i had built and sold space ships and they could go to the moon and that it was tested and work but only showed drawings would you not want real facts and pics that it was true. Im just some looking into something and your trying to sale an idea and product. I am ready sale this idea and product to me.

    #15346

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    Since you dont want to answer the basics i wont ask them any more….The key studies link talks about things from the 60’s,70’s,80’s …

    After reading trough the reading list you will agree with the rest of the forum members that the basic questions like “is concrete a suitable material”, “can it be done”, are already answered by those studies .

    These questions are not in discussion anymore, hundreds of tubular concrete structures under hydrostatic load are already in use sucessfully for decades – so what is needed is just a catch up for people who have not been aware of that yet – and your questions indicate that you are one of them. It is not that i do not want to answer your questions i just provided the reading list to allow you to catch up without boring the forum users that have already went trough that process.

    Since the discussion about feasibility was over decades ago the studies are from decades ago (when discussion was still on and it was still of interest and value to publish something in that field).

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    … you claim that you have built these subs …..

    Yes it is a fact i have built and dived concrete subs since the eighties – believe me it is much easier to build a concrete submarine than a space ship.

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    …..want real facts and pics …

    If you check my website you will find a reasonable prove for my achievements in pictures and videos. If you suspect a conspiracy and do not believe that prove – i can live with that – NASA still has to live with the fact that 20% of all americans seem do blieve the moonlanding was a fake.

    For the sake of progress in the discussion process and in the interest of the reader who wants to read about the captain nemo float out – on the captain nemo float out thread i would politly ask you to keep it a captain nemo float out discussion where the basic frame is that it can be done, it has been tested already, and it is affordable.

    To disipate your doubths you might buy a ticket come to cartagena and crawl into that boat…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15347

    Zephyrheart wrote:

    / sealants – light transmission / effect the concrete, strength-wise / added to the hull / done cheaply

    Bob Ballard postulated the end of viewports for research subs a long time ago as the combination of camara and plasma screen gives you a far better view of the surrounding world than the best viewport can do – you get much more
    BANG for the BUG .

    On the other hand a all side closed space with screens instead of windows seems to be too far fetched as a living space. Most owners will insist in “natural light” as part of general well being.

    What concerns light tansmission the fibers transmit light even better than normal glass, i do not think that a thin transparent layer of sealant will make a noticable difference. Bending strength might be affected by the parallel fibers but what counts is compression strength and it seems to be very much the same.

    I would go for cast in as general desireable solution due to the uniform force flow in the hull.

    How cheap the process can be? – i would see it very economic.

    Architectonic ambients as show below – without the cost of thick walled acrylic – could be possible.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15356
    Profile photo of Capt.Sean
    Capt.Sean
    Participant

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    Since you dont want to answer the basics i wont ask them any more….The key studies link talks about things from the 60’s,70’s,80’s …

    After reading trough the reading list you will agree with the rest of the forum members that the basic questions like “is concrete a suitable material”, “can it be done”, are already answered by those studies .

    These questions are not in discussion anymore, hundreds of tubular concrete structures under hydrostatic load are already in use sucessfully for decades – so what is needed is just a catch up for people who have not been aware of that yet – and your questions indicate that you are one of them. It is not that i do not want to answer your questions i just provided the reading list to allow you to catch up without boring the forum users that have already went trough that process.

    Since the discussion about feasibility was over decades ago the studies are from decades ago (when discussion was still on and it was still of interest and value to publish something in that field).

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    … you claim that you have built these subs …..

    Yes it is a fact i have built and dived concrete subs since the eighties – believe me it is much easier to build a concrete submarine than a space ship.

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    …..want real facts and pics …

    If you check my website you will find a reasonable prove for my achievements in pictures and videos. If you suspect a conspiracy and do not believe that prove – i can live with that – NASA still has to live with the fact that 20% of all americans seem do blieve the moonlanding was a fake.

    For the sake of progress in the discussion process and in the interest of the reader who wants to read about the captain nemo float out – on the captain nemo float out thread i would politly ask you to keep it a captain nemo float out discussion where the basic frame is that it can be done, it has been tested already, and it is affordable.

    To disipate your doubths you might buy a ticket come to cartagena and crawl into that boat…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    [/quote]

    It seems that these studies were done such a long time ago and never were applied in real world use for any number of reasons from the cost or just no one wanting to switch over. The US Navy looked into it and it didnt work out. Its so hard to tell what you have done and just taken off the internet i havent seen a single pic inside a sub diving that was made of cement but what i do see is photos of inside airplanes and drawings. Where are the pics of these vessels diving and out sailing around. You say the point of cement is to keep it at sea longer then where are these vessels out at sea. For the sake of progress just answer what i ask and not drag it out

    #15349
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Capt.Sean wrote:

    Thanks for writing back. Since you dont want to answer the basics i wont ask them any more.for your reading listthe first link you put up is 99% percent about in ground non sub sea building and the parts that is about ships arent real world they talk of a navy aircraft vessel that the navy gave up on. The navy does use metal ships all the time and goes out to sea for months on end. The key studies link talks about things from the 60’s,70’s,80’s and i dont know about you but i want up to date information not old data.

    Then you’d have to delve into above top secret discussions.

    Sad fact of the matter is that after the 50’s most new innovations have been classified top secret.

    Otherwise ferrocement is the best (publically) known material for making long-lived seasteads.

    Lowest initial cost, lowest maintenance cost, easiest to repair in air or underwater, with longest life-expectancy.

    Would you gio to a doctor who was using information from the 60’s.

    Most likely your doctor is, though surgery/pharma is perhaps the most detrimental of all health practices, though being the most profitable is the only one that gets government subsidy.

    So if you do any of your own research, you’ll verify these facts, and find out that alternative health practices such as nutrition, and energy-healing are much more effective, cheaper and lead to better overall health.

    I big problem with your idea is your using all these pics that i dont know if you made them or just took them off the internet but you claim that you have built these subs and sold them yet where are they are they just sitting in a dry dock or in your back yard or our they out in the ocean sailing full with capt nemo leading the helm. Im not calling you out or talk down to you. If i told you i had built and sold space ships and they could go to the moon and that it was tested and work but only showed drawings would you not want real facts and pics that it was true. Im just some looking into something and your trying to sale an idea and product. I am ready sale this idea and product to me.

    To my knowledge only the 2 subs have been built, the first (20ton) was just for testing, not sure if it was sold. The second one (200ton), had many issues in terms of transporting it to the water, not sure if it got there, since there was some kind of hooplah or Mayor problems.

    We have learned large amounts from Ellmer’s experience’s, such as that to avoid Mayor problems, craft should be under 20m (small enough to blend-in), and for ease of crane movement under 40 tons.

    Based on my seed-seastead calculations 12.6m length is largest-optimal, can still be sailed single handed, yet can fit 10 people, 7.7m beam, 4.9m height, 2.1cm thick, weighing minimum of 11 tons,

    (180cm*7*110cm*7*2+110cm*7*70cm*7*2+180cm*7*70cm*7*2)2/3*(0.25cm*7)*2400kg/m^3 = 11.00344 Mg
    (450 / 250) = (11000 / x) = approx. x = $25,000

    at $250 per 110kg, that’s $25,000 estimated materials cost, with a volume of 158cubic meters, it’s quite spacious, suggested retail $100,000.00.

    I’ve made a 1/4 size model, 180cmx110cmx70cm0x0.25cm dinghy, or life-space bubble, here is a video of me using it, doing some paddling, and even some interior work. Cost about $250 for the materials, suggested retail at $1000.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kqgKNT9p-g

    Note that the main idea is the “hands on approach”, we want You to build your own seastead, the resources are available here for you to do so, I have a thread explaining the math, with photos of the knots, and video’s of concrete mixing and plastering: http://www.seasteading.org/interact/forums/research/engineering/ferrocement-dinghy

    Note that informationi I produce is open-source, creative-commons share-alike. So it’s expected that you share your accomplishments, for us in the seasteading community, to benefit from your hands creations.

    Oh and btw, my current profile pic is of me sailing on helm.

    based on my model, a seed-seastead 4 times bigger, which fits 2 people comfortably.

    (180cm*4*110cm*4*2+110cm*4*70cm*4*2+180cm*4*70cm*4*2)2/3*(0.25cm*4)*2400kg/m^3 = 2.05Mg

    (110 / 250) = (2050 / x) = approx. x = 4545.45

    weighs 2.3 tons, costing only about $4,500 in materials, suggested retail, $20,000

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

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