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Building a new country

Home Forums Research Engineering Building a new country

This topic contains 21 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of againsttheodds againsttheodds 2 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 22 total)
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  • #1732
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Since there are no more continents on the face of this earth to be discovered, and interplanetary colonization is still an impossibility I was thinking about how modern man could find a new place to set a flag on.

    How about a newly built country?

    The idea would be to find a relatively shallow part of the ocean in international waters and start to build little by little. First a little island than expanding untill it becomes a decent enough piece of land to be called a country.

    I believe the ideal structure would be made of garbage mixed with cement . The trash would be ground into small pieces no bigger that 1/8 of a inch, then mixed with corrosion resistant cement.

    The mix would be, not in block sizes, but rather like construction debris ( gravel size) and it would be dumped in the place of choice untill the small island is formed. Basically, an Island made of

    Recycled Trash. All enviornmentally friendly.

    When the land size gets to an appropriate stability and size, solar and wind energy could be used to power a small comunity. The waste could give birth to an algae farm etc, etc. The possibility are limiteless.

    With so much money wasted in this world on futile things there should be somebody out there who would embrace the idea.

    #16779
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    wow! a revelation

    ____________

    Inventor of the “Bergstead”

    #16780
    Profile photo of Elwar
    Elwar
    Participant

    Perhaps we could call such an endeavor…Seasteading…kinda like homesteading but on the sea.

    How does that idea sound?

    #16781
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    Hmmm trash eh?, well it was already attempted with sand, check out Republic of Minerva.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16783
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    Chris! Pay no attention to the folks behind the curtains: we’re cynical and jealous except Spru… But seriously, read the threads.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    The problem with the “Republic of Minerva” was, first of all, the location, in my opinion. You can’t start such a project in waters that could be claimed by another country. Before anything starts you have to make sure you are in

    100% international waters.

    Second a project of this magnitude can’t be carried on by an one person, or a hand full of people. It needs to follow a corporate like structure, with an array of investors, a board, chairman, etc.

    Third and most important, is the meaning of the whole project. It must have some purpose other than just a bunch of people who want a place to do whatever they want.

    My idea would be to use much of the worlds trash to build the country. All the asbestos, old tires and other hazradous materials could be encapsulated in corrosion free cement and sent there.

    I live in south Florida and we have hills of trash here. I understand that to ship it to somewhere in the ocean would be more expensive but with some ingenuity the “investors” of this new country

    could bare some of the costs and the countries around the world that have problems with trash disposal would pay their share .

    I believe in a reasonable amount of time a small continent would emerge!! :)

    #16786
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Christopher wrote:
    Before anything starts you have to make sure you are in 100% international waters.

    Minerva is a bit of a grey area here. According to the dataset from the Flander’s Marine Institute the Minerva Reefs are in Fiji’s EEZ. However, since Fiji and Tonga are adjacent to each other it is up to them how they negotiate the borders of their EEZs. According to the measurements I’ve done the reefs are within the 300nm EEZ of Tonga, which you are correct could cause problems.

    As far as I can tell there are no places that match your criteria. The Saya de Malha bank is just like the Minerva Reefs, perfect for building up an artificial island but claimed by another nation, Mauritius. The only other location is Walters Shoal in the Indian Ocean. It gets very shallow in some spots, and is very far away from any other nation, but it’s a seamount, not a reef, so building up an artificial island would be very difficult (it has a peak, not a nice flat surface).

    If I were trying something like this today, I would go for Saya de Malha and say screw Mauritius and their claims.

    Christopher wrote:
    Second a project of this magnitude can’t be carried on by an one person, or a hand full of people. It needs to follow a corporate like structure, with an array of investors, a board, chairman, etc.

    I don’t think the structure matters, but you do need more than one person. The reason Tonga was able to wipe out Minerva was because Oliver underestimated how much existing nations hate anybody joining their club. If Oliver had hired a few mercenaries with rifles and kept them on the reef we’d be having a different discussion. He left it abandoned and allowed a boatload of thugs to just walk onto his land and take it over. Not smart.

    He did have a corporate structure, BTW. He created a whole company to finance and design the new country. He just needed more people on the ground rather than in offices back in the states.

    Christopher wrote:
    Third and most important, is the meaning of the whole project. It must have some purpose other than just a bunch of people who want a place to do whatever they want.

    I agree with you 100%, which is why I have such a hard time with TSI tying the seasteading ideal so closely with business ventures. In Oliver’s defense, he wasn’t creating some crazy hippie commune or drug haven. His new nation was going to be very libertarian and in no way a “place to do whatever they want”. He did have a higher purpose, he just didn’t bring enough guns.

    Christopher wrote:
    My idea would be to use much of the worlds trash to build the country. All the asbestos, old tires and other hazradous materials could be encapsulated in corrosion free cement and sent there.

    Uh, you lost me there dude. Why would you bother mixing garbage in with your nice clean cement? It doesn’t add anything. If you want to live and build a community on a pile of asbestos and hazardous waste, be my guest. I doubt you’ll find many people who want to live with you!

    #16789

    have to agree with smith, you get a lot more living space squaremeters out of your cement if you arrange the material in a honeycomb structure of structual sound concrete, than you would get using the same amount of cement to glue a trash pile to something more or less solid…. Have been there, have tested that.

    #16792
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Thanks for the comments so far folks!! I’m really enjoying the interchange of ideas!

    At first I was thinking about a shalow part of the ocean but after some pondering I came to the conclusion that it does not really matter. What is most important is to be as far as possible from any country and to have a nice climate.

    I’m oposed to a structural design first because of the risk of a “structural failure” down the road and second because of cost issues. If you dump ( filing size) pieces of concrete in the sea the pressures of the ocean floor would compact it a little more and because of the size and the layered process of deposition they will make a very stable and maintenance free base.

    I don’t see the depth of the ocean as an issue anymore because even if you consider, lets say 2.5 miles (which comprises more than half of the oceans average depth) it would not be impraticable to dump enough filling untill you form a small island. And even in the middle of the ocean you can find shallower areas of a mile or a mile and a half.

    I think the best approach for the filling deposit would be in a circle form so it would raise from the sea floor like a vulcano and form a somewhat shallower lagoon in the center. That first filling would be made of non corrosive cement and non hazardows trash. As soon as that part is done the lagoon in the center would receive a new filling made of non corrosive cement and hazardous material.

    This second deposit will be dumped inside the lagoon in the center till half way and the rest would be completed with the first non hazardous filling untill the island is formed. So the hazardous material will be completely surrounded and encapsulated by non-hazardous filling.

    It would be nice to locate a place near sea floor high temperature vents and then harvest their energy to make steam and generate eletricity.

    The idea behind using hazardous materials is to reduce the amount of trash being pumped into the ocean, and on land. It would be a completel “GREEN” ecologically friendly country, that would serve the other nations by taking their garbage off their hands.

    #16793
    Profile photo of Kaseijin
    Kaseijin
    Participant
    Christopher wrote:

    I don’t see the depth of the ocean as an issue anymore because even if you consider, lets say 2.5 miles (which comprises more than half of the oceans average depth) it would not be impraticable to dump enough filling untill you form a small island. And even in the middle of the ocean you can find shallower areas of a mile or a mile and a half.

    A pile of trash half the height of Mt. Everest is practical?
    You have to convince every person on Earth to donate a few tons and pay for transport.

    #16794
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Kaseijin wrote:
    Christopher wrote:

    I don’t see the depth of the ocean as an issue anymore because even if you consider, lets say 2.5 miles (which comprises more than half of the oceans average depth) it would not be impraticable to dump enough filling untill you form a small island. And even in the middle of the ocean you can find shallower areas of a mile or a mile and a half.

    A pile of trash half the height of Mt. Everest is practical? You have to convince every person on Earth to donate a few tons and pay for transport. [/quote]

    2.5 miles would be the extreme. I think that something around 1 to 1.5 miles would be more realistic and maybe a bit more pratical. I still have to do some calculations on cubic feet terms but to build a Bell Curve shape of cement/trash composit untill you have a small island ( to start with) seems to be acheavable.

    Again it would cost money and it would take time. Maybe somebody with time on his/her hands could calculate the cubic footage and compare it to current construction filling prices just so we have an idea!! ;)

    #16795
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Christopher wrote:
    Maybe somebody with time on his/her hands could calculate the cubic footage and compare it to current construction filling prices just so we have an idea!! ;)

    Don’t be lazy. Some back-of-the-napkin calculations:

    Assume you a building an equilateral cone. If you want to do this on the equator you are looking at 4000m depths. How do you calculate the volume of a cone?

    1/3 pi r^2 h

    (1/3) (3.1416) (4000*4000) (4000) = 67 billion cubic meters.

    To put that into perspective the Great Pyramid at Giza has a volume of only 2.5 million cubic meters. You could put 26800 Great Pyramids into your artificial island. That’s 804000 Empire State Buildings worth of building material.

    And it gets better. Your artificial island wouldn’t be an equilateral cone, since it would slope out near the bottom like a normal seamount so your volume would actually be more than what I calculated.

    And don’t count on the pressure fusing garbage into some wonder material. You need pressure and HEAT to fuse stuff together.

    So no, this isn’t going to work unless you find a very shallow place.

    #16796
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    smith u had to do those calculations to make that conclusion?

    ____________

    Inventor of the “Bergstead”

    #16797
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ok , I guess I was wrong . It seems that depth does matter :)

    Looking at some ocean floor charts on google,I was able to find some spots showing 600 feet or less in some areas of the pacific and Atlantic.

    I was unable to find anything very precise and I’m a little short in time so the research will have to be done later.

    #16798
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    shredder7753 wrote:
    smith u had to do those calculations to make that conclusion?

    Nah, but I like to keep the mind nimble! ;)

    Some other fun facts: 67,000,000,000 cubic meters is over 203,030 Burj Khalifas.

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