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This topic contains 40 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of xns xns 4 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 41 total)
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  • #8645
    Profile photo of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    I just don’t see small seasteads as being economically viable. A small seastead will still end up costing millions upon millions of dollars. Don’t forget, not only do you have the material costs but you are designing a whole new floating structure…you will end up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on testing before you even build your first floater.

    I think we have very different ideas about what a ‘small seastead’ is. I’m not talking about deep ocean just yet, but a group of vessels operating in an EEZ. Eventually this will lead to demand for larger seasteads by these people as the community grows and the community will have the funds to commission such projects or build them themselves. Then we’ll see those international waters colonized. Even the large seastead plan involves taking steps to slowly move out into international waters.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    Why spend all that money on a seastead when you can just go out and buy a beautiful luxury yacht for the same price that will give you the same living space and has the benefit of already being seaworthy? That’s even what TSI is planning on doing…shipsteading has moved up the priority list.

    That’s what I’ve said before. Your version of seasteading…groups of floating structures linked together…is doable right now with existing off-the-shelf technology and it isn’t happening. I don’t think people will come unless we leapfrog the “mountain man” phase and move right to the “boom town” phase.

    I agree. Using already existing tech like sailboats/yachts/larger vessels is the beginning or base, but form there I believe many free floating platforms will be attaching to these vessels. Finding a way to spread out safely is again a key to this effort but not the first step that many of us have been acting like.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    Absolutely it will cost tons upon tons of money. But every seasteading attempt that has happened so far has been done by a rich person chasing a dream. While they haven’t been successful…they have been more sucessful than any grass-roots small-seastead boat community attempt.

    I haven’t heard of too many grass-root attempts at this, while all of the large attempts are well known failures. I’ve heard of only an individual here and there, but even those have had some limited successes. What they didn’t have was an organization like TSI to help them refine their ideas prior to launch. We’ve got that and more.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    I understand the idea of starting small and growing. But you need to give people an incentive to join in the first place. What benefit is there for someone to move their whole family from their comfy home to a floating barge in the middle of the ocean? Freedom? Well if you are setup in an EEZ then what more freedoms do they get that they don’t already have?

    I think there is plenty of incentive. Some want to be in on the ground floor. Others have business models that only work if they are one of the first out and thus grab the complete market share for a while. Freedom comes from floating with a group of like-minded individuals with which barter and community can develope. Also none of the large projects are being designed to be self sufficient in any way. Having to rely on the same old land based systems is not freedom, it’s just seperation.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    I believe the “build it and they will come” plan is more viable. Yes it will cost gobs upon gobs of money, but it’s the only way I see it happening because no other option has happened yet.

    I also believe in the ‘Build it and they will come’ model. I just don’t think it works like the movie Field of Dreams, I think building it involves a community of people actually doing it. The expensive models artificially create that community using finances that will run out eventually unless other people come. Sounds like a scheme and schemes rarely pan out. I wouldn’t put my money behind it but I am putting my money behind a smaller effort. To each their own I guess. =)

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #8646
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Pastor_Jason wrote:
    I agree. Using already existing tech like sailboats/yachts/larger vessels is the beginning or base, but form there I believe many free floating platforms will be attaching to these vessels. Finding a way to spread out safely is again a key to this effort but not the first step that many of us have been acting like.

    Again, this can happen right now. Why isn’t it? You don’t need the help of TSI to do this. What do you mean by “spread out safely”?

    Or are you saying it isn’t worth beginning with boats/platforms unless there is a long-term plan for eventual seasteads in the open ocean? I can understand that.

    Pastor_Jason wrote:
    I haven’t heard of too many grass-root attempts at this,

    I know, I was my poor attempt at humor. My point is that all attempts at seasteading so far have been single wealthy people trying something new. Even though they have been failures, at least there were attempts. There haven’t been any attempts at a boat community even though there is nothing stopping that from happening.

    Pastor_Jason wrote:
    To each their own I guess. =)

    Of course! I would never tell anyone that their plan is stupid or that they shouldn’t pursue it….as long as they’re not taking resources from my plan! ;)

    #8647
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Is what we see if we take our eyes off our goals. It has to be small, in the beggining, sort of “dont put all yout eggs in the same basket” mentality. There is a big difference between “small failure” and “big failure”,.. Why spend millions to start when we can spend a couple of hundred thousand $ to test the idea? Most of the big discoveries were started in a small lab…Incrementalism shud be the fundation of ANY seasteading project.

    Octavian

    #8648
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
    Incrementalism shud be the fundation of ANY seasteading project.

    Some things don’t scale down very well…sometimes it is better to start off at a large scale rather than ramp up. PV solar power stations are a good example. It isn’t economically feasible to build a small plant and build up…it will cost you a lot more in the long run. It costs less to wait until you have a large amount of capital and then build a massive facility all at once. Actually most power generation projects work this way.

    I don’t believe we will ever see floating communities because we haven’t seen them yet. Nobody want to live in a community of lashed-together boats floating dozens of miles offshore like some aquatic hippie commune because if they did we would see them by now.

    Build a large structure with most of the amenities of home, and people will come. Plan and design a structure like this, and hope you win the lottery. That’s the only way I see seasteading becoming a reality.

    #8652
    Profile photo of Shouri
    Shouri
    Participant

    I wasn’t speaking my mind for not being discouraging but since Smith pointed it, here goes… I too think that there is no viable way to create a small seasteading community. Most people like me, with a bit piece of knowledge about anything but professional in an unrelated line of work can dream of communities but in reality, even a small seastead project will require millions of dollars worth of research, and i am not talking about a simple floating building, what we are talking is something that will make you want to move there from your comfy home. Even the research of infrastructure will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a self sustaining seastead(aeroponic systems, solar&wind energy systems, satellite communication etc). And without having all these complicated features no one would like to move to a floating home…So most viable probability for seasteading project is some rich guy builds a giant seastead that can actually sustain itself to set an example just like Smith said… People wouldn never prefer buying a seastead instead of a megayacht before seeing an example… Even after all the research is done i dont believe there will be cheap steads that are being massproduced, i do not think the material cost can be decreased that drastically. A small seastead which can fully(with fully i mean fully!) sustain itself and 1-2 families should cost about 50+ million dollars(Assuming research is done already and its being manufactured commonly already). Something cheaper wont make you move from your house to ocean unless you are looking for only adventure. That said, i wonder if would buy a mega bugatti yacht or a seastead with that kind of money though…

    #8653
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “A small seastead which can fully(with fully i mean fully!) sustain itself and 1-2 families should cost about 50+ million dollars”??

    Plssssssss man,… you are way, Way, Way off. For $ 20 Mil you can buy this

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp?ro=1&slim=quicknull&r=1885304&checked_boats=1885304&rs=yachtworld.com&boat_id=1885304&back=/core/boats/1996/High-Speed-Catamaran-Car-pax-78m–1885304/Greece&boat_id=1885304

    This 1-2 families of yours must be very high maintenance!

    #8654
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Just thought I’d point out that I’m posting this from a small(800m2) floating structure 3km off the north coast of Singapore, right next to “Pulau Ubin”, it’s visible on google earth. It cost $47,000 to build and regularly gets 3ft waves from the freighters and ferries that pass by. It’s a fish farm, so food isn’t an issue, vegetables and fruits COULD be grown from the giant pile of vermicompost in the corner, but it’s more valuable if I sell it, fresh water is readily available from rain, solar, wind and hydro-power are available off the shelf for less than $5000.

    Seems to me that many assumptions on the “What”s or “How”s seasteading are being posted. Especially on the economics of it. Where are you getting these numbers? How large is large? How small is small? Why would research cost millions? Why are we debating the variability of variables?

    A boat community is just as viable as a large seastead. That statement can neither be confirmed nor denied. So in the interest of making headway there’s a few things I though might be useful to consider;

    1) How would they be independent from the rest of the world?

    2) If not, what kind of trade would they be engaged in?

    Those two things are the only things, aside from social impetus, I can think of that are preventing independent boat communities from becoming commonplace. Surviving storms is the easy part.

    PS: All figures in Singapore Dollars. Current exchange rate is SG$1.39 to US$1.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #8655
    Profile photo of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    I would like to submit the freedom ship and the proposed world ship as a type of steading community. Yes they spend huge amounts of money, stay in port for large periods of time and have restrictions on how long they can stay on board during a year but it is a large community of people staying for extended periods on a boat.

    To address your first question of how they would be indepedent from the rest of the world…

    I would suggest that, at first, they will not be. I think we will still need to keep good relations with any nation we are near, or at least one really powerful ally. This is for a couple of reasons, but mainly because who else are we going to market the lifestyle to. And to grow the steading movement and ideology we will have to market and campainge.

    To address your second question of what kind of trade they would be engaged in…

    Again, at first, only things that they need for themselves. Whatever extra they are able to put away that they do not need will be used for trade.

    Infrastructure of almost any large project is a huge cost. In time, monies and sacrifice. Once an infrastructure is in place things get easier… in some ways.

    Boats could provide the start of that infrastructure to minimize these costs. As capital is obtained larger floating structures will become a necessity for more poeple to convene and take advatage of the new fields in aquaponics.

    If we wait to have the capital needed to construct the single large structure then those with the capital will very likely not see a large enough fast return on the investment. And decide not to.

    At lest that is part of the way I see it.

    Thank you

    #8656
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    xnsdvd wrote:
    Just thought I’d point out that I’m posting this from a small(800m2) floating structure 3km off the north coast of Singapore

    I give you tons and tons of credit for doing what you are doing….but I wouldn’t call what you are doing “seasteading”. That’s not a criticism mind you…just a difference of definition I guess.

    xnsdvd wrote:
    A boat community is just as viable as a large seastead. That statement can neither be confirmed nor denied.

    I believe it can be denied, because there are no boat communities and there haven’t ever even been any attempts at one. You said it yourself, you are on a floating platform that costs $47k and it sounds like you could be pretty self-sustainable. So why aren’t you currently docked at a floating boat community made up of hundreds or thousands of similar platforms? There must be hundreds of thousands of libertarians and anarchists in the world who could scrape together $47k. Why aren’t they rushing to the oceans? Come on, I bet every person on this site could scrape together $47k.

    #8657
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    jtg423 wrote:
    I would like to submit the freedom ship and the proposed world ship as a type of steading community. Yes they spend huge amounts of money, stay in port for large periods of time and have restrictions on how long they can stay on board during a year but it is a large community of people staying for extended periods on a boat.

    Just because a bunch of people stay on a big boat for a little while doesn’t make it a seastead. I equate seasteading with freedom from existing governments. ResidenSea (or the World Ship) flies a Bahamas flag so you might as well just live in the Bahamas…it’s just a glorified cruise ship. Same goes for the proposed Freedom Ship, which according to their own FAQ says “It will operate under the same rules and regulations as a cruise ship.” That, to me, is not seasteading.

    jtg423 wrote:
    If we wait to have the capital needed to construct the single large structure then those with the capital will very likely not see a large enough fast return on the investment. And decide not to.

    I don’t see any of this happening based on “fast return on the investment”. I don’t see seasteading ever succeeding as a market opportunity, whether it is a large single structure or a floating group of small boats. I see it as more of a work of freedom.

    Look at the “Pirate Ship” story. Those folks didn’t start up a pirate radio station to make money…they did it because they believed in something bigger than “profit” or “ROI”. They wanted to make a difference. That is the only way I see seasteading ever succeeding.

    #8658
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Just because you dont “see” it, doesnt mean that its not there. Yes, maybe X’s fish farm doesn qualify for a seastad, by definition, but it does have the qualities of one in the making. Yes, ResidentSea it is just a glorified cruiseship under Bahama flag, because its just a business, not a project in soveragnity. They do pretend to be free there, but in reality they are not. They are just hiding there.

    We, on the other hand want to EXIST on a future seastead. This is my understanding of it. But there is no freedom if broke. And existence without freedom is a joke. So its seems to me that you live in denial. ” I see it as more of a work of freedom.” OK. “I don’t see any of this happening based on “fast return on the investment”. I don’t see seasteading ever succeeding as a market opportunity,….” NOT OK. Why not? If it seems that is not working, lets put it under microscope and take a closer look. Lets work on it and MAKE IT a return to an investment and a succesfull market opportunity. It can be done.

    Lets show a bit of optinism here bro, some confidence,…i am getting depressed.

    #8660
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
    Yes, maybe X’s fish farm doesn qualify for a seastad, by definition, but it does have the qualities of one in the making.

    I don’t think so. Again, I cannot stress enough how much respect I have for anyone who grabs life by the balls and goes off on their own like this. But until you have soveriegnty you don’t have seasteading. I’m not talking a seat on the UN mind you…just the freedom to build your own society the way you want to build it without living under the rules of an existing nation.

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
    We, on the other hand want to EXIST on a future seastead. This is my understanding of it. But there is no freedom if broke. And existence without freedom is a joke. So its seems to me that you live in denial. ” I see it as more of a work of freedom.” OK. “I don’t see any of this happening based on “fast return on the investment”. I don’t see seasteading ever succeeding as a market opportunity,….” NOT OK. Why not? If it seems that is not working, lets put it under microscope and take a closer look. Lets work on it and MAKE IT a return to an investment and a succesfull market opportunity. It can be done.

    Lets show a bit of optinism here bro, some confidence,…i am getting depressed.

    I don’t think seasteading can succeed as a marketing venture. It will be seen as a scam by a suspicious public. I’m not saying a seastead won’t make money…existing nations make money by creating and exporting goods. I believe that seasteading will only succeed as a social experiment.

    That’s why I don’t subscribe to the whole ClubStead idea. Seasteading to me is not a floating casino, or medical ship, or some underwater resort. It is a new society. Yes, that new society might create goods and services that are attractive to people and thus generate income simply because of the freedoms this new society embraces. But it is not simply some money-making scheme.

    I am completely confident that this will happen. It will just take one person with a ton of money and a vision. There are people throwing around BILLIONS of dollars on goals half as worthy as this. We just need to find the right person.

    #8686
    Profile photo of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    Show me the money or maybe shower me with the money….

    I jest… but really do we want to wait for some “Marine Enthusiest Billionaire” to walk in one day, pat us all on the heads, and say “thats a nice plan, I will take it from here”?

    I say no way jose…

    To be free, to decide for ourselves what we want and dont want, we will need to be in charge.

    Now I can understand your hesitation about “money-making schemes.” But realistically where else will the money come from if we are to do this ourselves. With the 2500 members of TSI, if everyone provided $10,000 we could have 25 million dollars, and that would still only scratch the surface of the capital we will need.

    But if we are able to create a revenue stream, even a relatively small one, we would be able to use that to secure loans to fund expansion and other projects. In this incremental way we can attain the levels of autonomy, community, economic viability, and self-sustainability that we desire over time.

    The Native Americans “sold” huge tracks of land, in some cases (manhatten) for baubles, because they did not understand the true value of what they had. Did not even understand the concept of “owning land.” We do. Would you sell me the land you hunt and live on for a house, or would you go without a house “for a while” and use your land to produce the need things to build your own? Ask yourself the same question about seasteading…

    My answer would again be “no way Jose”.

    I would like to see a business proposition for seasteading and I think, reading the forums, that there are others who see it the same way. If the guys building submarines (concretesub.com) decide to build steadings and begin making money off of it, many of us here will be kicking ourselves… If the guys doing open ocean fish farming (oceanfarmingtech.com) build a large fish farm and begin making money off of it, many of us here will be kicking ourselves… If the guys doing wave generated energy (???too many to name???) build a huge wave farm off the coast of New York and begin making huge sums of money, many of us here will be kicking ourselves.

    These are just three businesses that people are currently developing. The seasteading movement must take advantage of these opportunities if we are to be a success. If we do not others will… “and we will be kicking ourselves”. I for one do not intend to have a black and blue backside from kicking myself. I intend to find the most likely avenue for success even if that avenue does not “plot a straight course” to the end goals of seasteading, at least it will get us closer than where we are now.

    Thx

    #8689
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Fish farming, energy generation, and cruising in a concrete sub are all fine and dandy…but they aren’t seasteading.

    I expect a seastead will do fish farming and energy generation, and hopefully even sell the excess for profit. But the profit is not the motive for the seasteading. The motive for seasteading is freedom and the chance to build something new. If we can make a profit on top of that…great. But self-sustainability should be the primary goal and it should be marketed as such.

    I agree that the chance for some benevolent donator dropping a few hundred million in somebody’s lap is very low. But that is the only way I see true seasteading happening. You could start a boat community right now if a third of the members of this site raised $100k and moved out on their new boats. But they don’t. If you can’t get highly motivated people to do it, how are you to get anybody else to do it?

    And again, I don’t see a large flotilla of lashed-together rag-tag sailboats as seasteading.

    #8691
    Profile photo of Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Lasse-Birk-Olesen
    Participant

    I encourage anyone interested in establishing a seastead community in the Baltic Sea to sign up for the mailing list at http://www.balticseasteading.com

    The waves in the Baltic are no higher than it may be perfectly safe to live on a sailboat. I just bought a boat which I’ll learn to sail and go out and test the conditions next year. We had a first meeting in September and I expect to arrange another one in December/January.

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