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Blueseed

This topic contains 55 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 2 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 56 total)
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  • #16651
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Video of the entire meetup was recorded with the intent to make it available online. I was going to post the link here, but it is currently made private on Youtube. There has probably been some delay due to the US holiday as well. The presentation itself mostly focused on justification for the project from a barrier to immigration perspective, though technical issues were discussed in the Q&A afterward. I saw a tantalizing glimpse of a business presentation I would have liked to see which showed financial numbers and charts when they were bringing up a chart..

    #16658
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    can’t blame them for not passing on info.

    I most certainly can blame them. How many people on these forums have freely shared thoughts, research, ideas, etc? I’ve spent countless hours doing research on long-distance internet options. Do I just sit on all that, rub my hands together, and cackle with greed? Of course not, I posted all my thoughts and research on the Internet thread. Same goes for all the seamount research I did. Blueseed wants to get the PR boost from TSI, make use of the engineering research, but doesn’t want to pass on any of their research to the community? Poor form, lads. Poor form.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    It is obvious that they can not have hammered it out in all details in this project phase

    Which is stupid. How do you even move forward on a project like this unless you have all the details hammered out? There are two critical components of the Blueseed project: the high-speed internet link and the visa/legal aspect. Everything else (power, mooring, food, ship design, etc) is off-the-shelf stuff that needs money but no technical or engineering leaps. How you can even talk to investors about something like Blueseed before you have the data link and visa/immigration issues worked out is beyond me.

    I mean, that’s like me asking investors for several hundred thousand dollars to open a fast food restaurant without telling them where I’ll be building. It’s pretty much a make-or-break project detail.

    So, as I said before, either they have detailed plans on how to solve those two issues or they don’t. If they have them, and have shared them with investors but not the TSI community, then I want nothing more to do with them or TSI. If they don’t have them then they are irresponsible for seeking investors and doing all this PR media blitz stuff without even knowing if the entire idea is possible, and it will once again make the entire seasteading idea look bad.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    Funds is the center of any real world seasteading project – not discussion – not engineering –

    No, engineering is the critical aspect. While funding is, of course, incredibly important you will not get the funding without a solid engineering plan. If it is going to cost $1B to create a high-speed internet link 300nm from shore then you need to know that UP FRONT. It might even be impossible, at which point it’s useless to even look for funding. Legal aspects are almost as important as the engineering. If U.S. officials refuse to let people come-and-go easily to-and-from Blueseed then it doesn’t matter if they have $10M or $50M or $100M in funding…the entire idea won’t work.

    You design, then you seek funding. Not the other way around…

    #16659
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    From the ara technica article:

    The more serious problem is the risk of being turned away during each trip from the boat to California.

    There will be “a little bit of uncertainty every time they come in,” Siskind said. Each trip to the mainland would require an inspection by an immigration official who would have discretion to decide who to let into the country. “Depending on what that person had for breakfast may determine the future of your business,” he said.

    I’d like to talk to you about a great new investment opportunity called RanDomicile. For a small investment of $1M you can get in on the ground floor of this exciting new startup. This company will build modular homes from old cargo containers. We can get them cheap, and they can be customized with all manner of options. However, the door to each home has an electronic lock, tied to a random number generator. Every time you come home there is a chance that your access code will not work and you will be unable to enter your home. Ever. So who would like to be part of this great new venture in the housing market? Anyone? Bueller?

    At least this is some information I can use. It cements my thoughts that any real seastead needs to be as close to 100% self-sufficient as possible. Tranporting goods back-and-forth to the mainland will be met with hassles, so you can never be sure that the next diesel or food shipment will come through. No way I’m relying on the whims of some moody customs official when it comes to powering my seastead or feeding the people on it.

    Also from the article:

    They’re still researching options, but the tentative plan is for a high-speed fixed wireless connection with a satellite backup.

    Wow. The details…too much. Brain on overload….Can’t grasp the complexities….too much math….

    You might as well just say each TCP packet will be tranported back-and-forth to the mainland by winged unicorns.

    #16660
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Wonder if, as part of your Blueseed welcome packet, they give you a pair of wire cutters to get through the fence?

    “US builds sea fence to stop Mexican immigrant wave”

    The United States is building a barrier stretching 300 feet (90 meters) out into the Pacific to bar illegal immigrants from using a low-tide route to flood into southern California from Mexico.

    #16667
    Avatar of dvd
    dvd
    Keymaster

    Hey guys,

    Sorry for not jumping in. What’s most critical right now for us, and is taking a lot of time, is to get more funding, which we just did – Thiel has signed up last night.

    As for the Internet access, it’s the sort of problem that we know is a technical, rather than an existential obstacle, and we chose to focus our attention on that once we get funded. For now, what we have in mind is a solution powered by the Rocket M5 GPS radio and the RocketDish 34dbi antenna (3 deg by 3 deg cone).

    i_j_smith – we’ll certainly look at your research. We just haven’t had the time to do so yet. We’ll also contribute back a lot of our findings to the larger seasteading community.

    #16669

    Whow – Thiel funds for Blueseed, – congratualtions ! This is a major achievement on the most important project management front !

    I agree that hammer out the details of a intenet access can not be a existencial obstacle nor bring up issues that can be show stoppers. If there are funds there is a way to do it – and it is clear that there are of the shelve soluions (several) to do it.

    Islands can have good Internet access we know that, no doubth blueseed can have it too.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16670

    Although the argument that the shore trip of blueseed inhabitants may depends on the “mood status of the local imigration officer” may be true in theory and in legal terms.

    Blueseed, once established, has one thing in favor the pressure of the de facto situation.

    In Theory immigration and Harbor police can turn around ANY ship that touches port any time they please. (And they do a lot of that with Yachts full of yunkeys). On the other hand nobody ever has turned around a cruise ship for immigration or police reasons.

    The good officer doing so because he is in bad mood would just loose his job.

    In the same way blueseed, once established coud have a ferry to the mainland that is de facto untouchable for customs and immigration because it is de facto protected by powerful economic interests in Silicon Vally – so runs under other defacto rules than a fishing boat full of suspecious immigrants.

    Similar as Royal Caribbean runs the harbor and immigration office in Cartagena – Blueseed could at the end have a couple of immigration officers on its payroll and i am sure they will not reject their ferries full of priority contacts for the local economy…

    So the wire cutter can be left in India when Thiel and Co and major political forces want it to happen. This is called REALPOLITIK

    After all – all the talk of “keeping the latins and foreigners out” is just for the stupid voters who fear for their job and want something radical done – everybody who has a brain and is capeable of logic thought knows that things doesn´t work that way in a global economy….

    So Blueseed can position itself by allowing politicians to build hostile fences for the stupid voters and welcome smart foreigners at the same time and profit from both sides – that is a win win situation and certainly works in politics where twisted is always a good thing…

    Thiel certainly seem to see a chance to get it work and is betting money on it and the guy has not become billionaire for being stupid…i suppose…

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16674
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    one thing its useful for is laying the legal groundwork for mw to sell my islands ;-)

    ____________

    Inventor of the “Bergstead”

    I cant afford this project send me money!

    #16771
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant
    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    can’t blame them for not passing on info.

    I most certainly can blame them. How many people on these forums have freely shared thoughts, research, ideas, etc? I’ve spent countless hours doing research on long-distance internet options. Do I just sit on all that, rub my hands together, and cackle with greed? Of course not, I posted all my thoughts and research on the Internet thread. Same goes for all the seamount research I did. Blueseed wants to get the PR boost from TSI, make use of the engineering research, but doesn’t want to pass on any of their research to the community? Poor form, lads. Poor form.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    It is obvious that they can not have hammered it out in all details in this project phase

    Which is stupid. How do you even move forward on a project like this unless you have all the details hammered out? There are two critical components of the Blueseed project: the high-speed internet link and the visa/legal aspect. Everything else (power, mooring, food, ship design, etc) is off-the-shelf stuff that needs money but no technical or engineering leaps. How you can even talk to investors about something like Blueseed before you have the data link and visa/immigration issues worked out is beyond me.

    I mean, that’s like me asking investors for several hundred thousand dollars to open a fast food restaurant without telling them where I’ll be building. It’s pretty much a make-or-break project detail.

    So, as I said before, either they have detailed plans on how to solve those two issues or they don’t. If they have them, and have shared them with investors but not the TSI community, then I want nothing more to do with them or TSI. If they don’t have them then they are irresponsible for seeking investors and doing all this PR media blitz stuff without even knowing if the entire idea is possible, and it will once again make the entire seasteading idea look bad.

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    Funds is the center of any real world seasteading project – not discussion – not engineering –

    No, engineering is the critical aspect. While funding is, of course, incredibly important you will not get the funding without a solid engineering plan. If it is going to cost $1B to create a high-speed internet link 300nm from shore then you need to know that UP FRONT. It might even be impossible, at which point it’s useless to even look for funding. Legal aspects are almost as important as the engineering. If U.S. officials refuse to let people come-and-go easily to-and-from Blueseed then it doesn’t matter if they have $10M or $50M or $100M in funding…the entire idea won’t work.

    You design, then you seek funding. Not the other way around…

    [/quote]

    Are you familiar with this project?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.A.T.M.A.N.

    Solar or wave seem like the best way to make the repeaters self sustaining.

    Respect for putting time and energy in to the ocean internet issue. It’s important to me as well.

    #16773
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    dvd wrote:
    What’s most critical right now for us, and is taking a lot of time, is to get more funding…

    Funny. I’d think the most critical thing would be to make sure you can get a high-speed internet link from a stationary platform 12nm out at sea. Otherwise it doesn’t matter how much funding you have…no techie is going to live on a boat with a satellite link when there’s all that tasty fiber on land, no matter the immigration advantages.

    And it’s not like you need a ton of startup money to test. You can get a Ubiquiti Network’s Rocket M5 GPS for $250 and a Rocketdish 5G-34 for $360. So for ~$1200 you have everything you need to start testing. First, see if you can get a 12nm link from two land-based locations. See how hard that is to do. From what I’ve read so far about these MIMO systems they are very easy to setup, but incredibly difficult to get perfect. They seem to try very hard to make it as easy as possible, though. The software that comes with these Rocket systems in pretty neat, but it’s still aiming two dishes at each other over a very long distance.

    Once you have done a land link you can start water testing. Put one setup on a beach and take the other end out on a boat and see if you can get links established over increasingly long distances. From what I’ve read about MIMO systems they can have lots of problems when going over tidal waters. The constant undulation of the tides means the elevation under the signal constantly changes, and this can wreak havoc with the signal. I’ve read case studies of people having no issues, and others where people had a terrible time running these over water. Something to keep in mind.

    So you see, I really don’t understand why you have to get a ton of initial funding before you start testing this mission-critical component. If you don’t have a few thousand dollars of seed money you can put into getting some equipment and at least doing an overland test then Blueseed isn’t going anywhere.

    dvd wrote:
    Thiel has signed up last night.

    That’s great. I know he has a ton of money to throw around, but I thought the era of people investing in companies without any proven technology or even a solid business plan died with the Pets.com sock puppet. I guess it’s good that there are still people willing to buy a ton of chips and put them all on 20 black. Guess Thiel is doing pretty well, even with the overly oppresive and suffocating US government breathing down his neck and stifling all innovation.

    dvd wrote:
    what we have in mind is a solution powered by the Rocket M5 GPS radio and the RocketDish 34dbi antenna (3 deg by 3 deg cone).

    That is a good find…I had not heard about Ubiquiti Networks and their product line…which is funny because I’ve been researching the C.I.S.A.R. 304km link for a while now. I guess I had heard the company name, but never realized they had off-the-shelf products ready for the commercial market. All of the long-distance links I’ve seen so far have been do-it-yourself projects done on-the-cheap. But so far I’ve read about a few long distance links using their products, including a 174km link carrying VOIP traffic. That’s very promising.

    The key for this, and other water-based systems, is going to be 1) making sure the signal will remain consistent with waves/tides and other forms of interference (signal reflection) when running long distances over water, and 2) getting the beams steady enough so that it can make a good connection. This shouldn’t be too hard if you have one end on a large boat (like a cruise liner or a big oil tanker/cargo vessel) that’s anchored/moored very securely. The issue is if you can’t do a single A-to-B link and have to have intermediate stations acting as signal boosters/repeaters. Those, whether they are hanging from aerostats or floating on buoys, are going to be the PITA part of the system…and that’s where I’ve been spending most of my research time.

    I’d still rather use an underwater cable. Don’t think that ever going to happen, though. That’s where I’d really love to spend some research dollars, though…investigating the legal issues of installing underwater cables in the various zones (territorial, contiguous, EEZ). Even if you could do an underwater cable all the way in, and just do a wireless for the last 12nm, it would be a huge advantage to doing a 300nm wireless signal with multiple hops.

    Ah well. I’m going to keep looking into the Rocket line of products, though. This seems like a great solution.

    #16774
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    tusavision wrote:
    Are you familiar with this project?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.A.T.M.A.N. Solar or wave seem like the best way to make the repeaters self sustaining. Respect for putting time and energy in to the ocean internet issue. It’s important to me as well.

    I had not heard about that project. Seems interesting, but it’s just a GPL routing protocol on Linux so it seems better suited to DIY projects rather than commercial products like Ubiquiti or Intel’s Rural Connectivity Platform.

    Not that I’m knocking DIY projects…they’ve had the best luck with long-distance high-bandwidth links so far…and they’ve been able to do it for surprisingly low amounts of money. But while DIY might be good for testing and initial phases you’ll probably want to stick with commercial products for mission-critical links.

    #16776
    Avatar of dvd
    dvd
    Keymaster

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    And it’s not like you need a ton of startup money to test. You can get a Ubiquiti Network’s Rocket M5 GPS for $250 and a Rocketdish 5G-34 for $360. So for ~$1200 you have everything you need to start testing. First, see if you can get a 12nm link from two land-based locations. See how hard that is to do. [...] Once you have done a land link you can start water testing.

    Doing a land test first is a good idea, and water tests will follow – either ad-hoc or within the contest of an event we’re thinking of organizing next year.

    Startup Weekend is a global network of entrepreneurs who organize startup bootstrapping events all over the world. We’d like to run a Startup Weekend event on the water, with about 150 people, maybe even in the 12-mile spot, but for a start, the ship could be closer to shore, since this wouldn’t entail wage earning, and most of the attendance would have the right to work in the US. This would be great PR-wise among our target customers, but we need to find a cost-effective ship to house people for 3 days.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    So you see, I really don’t understand why you have to get a ton of initial funding before you start testing this mission-critical component. If you don’t have a few thousand dollars of seed money you can put into getting some equipment and at least doing an overland test then Blueseed isn’t going anywhere.

    Initially we were considering a laser solution provided by AOptix. The upfront cost was very large though (around $350K), so funding became priority #1. The Ubiquity Network solution is something we discovered very recently (as you’ve seen, there are LOTS of wireless solutions), and now that we know about it, we’re indeed looking into doing a test by placing a transmited on a lighthouse in Half Moon Bay (Point Montara). That requires establishing a relationship with the local key players, which we’re working on.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:
    I’d still rather use an underwater cable. Don’t think that ever going to happen, though. That’s where I’d really love to spend some research dollars, though…investigating the legal issues of installing underwater cables in the various zones (territorial, contiguous, EEZ). Even if you could do an underwater cable all the way in, and just do a wireless for the last 12nm, it would be a huge advantage to doing a 300nm wireless signal with multiple hops.

    A cable would be great, especially if we can run a power cable along. But the Half Moon Bay area is part of the Monterey Sanctuary, and we do need to research all the legal issues. So far, estimates put the price at $1M.

    #16782
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    It’s amazing how, in silicon valley, they are just showered with gold.

    Though as studies show, that actually only reduces incentive for any tasks requiring thought.

    (here in easily digestible TED talk format http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y )

    So it’s not surprising that they wish to delegate simple tasks to a bunch of hired staff.

    While everyone else, that’s actually building seasteads, is on the brink of poverty.

    For 1 Million, Ellmer could make a concrete submarine big enough for 100-200 people.

    In silicon valley, all that a million gets you, is some paperwork regarding the feasability of cables through the ocean attached to a ship.

    Here, I’ll give you same information free of charge! First off, wave action would shatter fiber-optics. Secondly if you were to build a repeater tower, you’d be making an artifical structure, and be susceptible to a whole slew of regulation.

    You’d be better off using a buoy as a repeater, if you find 12nm is just too far.

    Also commercial products are in my humble opinion far inferior to DIY,

    largely due to a) proprietary nature b) planned obsolence,

    meaning that b) it’ll brake and a) you can’t fix it.

    Also you’re application on water is most likely outside of any commercial warranty, so that’s pretty frivilous also.

    In any case, silicon boys, you have enough money for a boat, so get one,

    and start living on it full time, just like a blueseed participant would, can use it for testing.

    Ya I know, your fancy suits might get wet, but you chose to make a seastead business…

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

    #16787
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    elspru wrote:
    Here, I’ll give you same information free of charge!

    You get what you pay for…

    elspru wrote:
    First off, wave action would shatter fiber-optics.

    ALL existing submarine data cables are made of fiber optics.

    elspru wrote:
    Secondly if you were to build a repeater tower, you’d be making an artifical structure, and be susceptible to a whole slew of regulation.

    You’d be better off using a buoy as a repeater, if you find 12nm is just too far.

    Please read before commenting. Nobody said anything about a tower. I said a buoy or an aerostat.

    #16800
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    elspru wrote:

    Here, I’ll give you same information free of charge!

    You get what you pay for…

    elspru wrote:
    First off, wave action would shatter fiber-optics.

    ALL existing submarine data cables are made of fiber optics.

    [/quote]

    yes but those stay on the ground. Notice how I said wave-action,

    refering to a cable going from the floor and being connected to a boat susceptible to wave-action.

    Much like the kind of boat which blueseed was planning.

    elspru wrote:

    Secondly if you were to build a repeater tower, you’d be making an artifical structure, and be susceptible to a whole slew of regulation.

    You’d be better off using a buoy as a repeater, if you find 12nm is just too far.

    Please read before commenting. Nobody said anything about a tower. I said a buoy or an aerostat.

    [/quote]

    I was giving a tower as a possible alternative to connecting a cable directly to the floating boat.

    Aerostat’s aren’t quite seasteading but sure. Personally I’d be more interested in seeing some kind of hydro-sonic data-transfer system similar to dolphin clicks.

    We with You are a Network, our goal to become technologically-enabled reproducible family communities. http://weyounet.info

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