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Blueseed

This topic contains 55 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS OCEANOPOLIS 2 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 56 total)
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  • #1710
    Avatar of dvd
    dvd
    Keymaster

    Blueseed is a shipsteading venture that aims to provide an alternative solution to the US work visa problem by mooring a 1000-passenger vessel right outside the US territorial waters near the coast of Silicon Valley. On that vessel, we plan to offer work and living accommodations for startup entrepreneurs and other high-tech professionals who find it valuable to be located next to Silicon Valley.

    We’ll take the first incremental step towards the political goals of seasteading by seeking selective autonomy, for example by using international commercial arbitration, and by competing with the current US work immigration system.

    For an informed discussion in this thread, please make sure to read our FAQ.


    Dan Dascalescu

    CIO, Blueseed
    http://blueseed.co

    #16453
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Okay I’ll bite. I have two questions, one political and one technical.

    You guys have been focusing on the visa thing pretty hard. “…provide an alternative solution to the US work visa problem” and so on. But right there in the middle of the FAQ you state that nobody living on the Blueseed vessel can earn a paycheck in the U.S. without a U.S. work visa. Plus you even say that people will probably need a business or tourist visa to get into the U.S. BEFORE they even get to the Blueseed ship. How in the name of all that is logical in the Universe can you sell Blueseed as the answer to the “United States’ current immigration and regulatory regime” if you need to get a tourist visa just to GET TO BLUESEED?

    Let’s say I live in Osaka, Japan. If I want to completely avoid U.S. customs or immigration law I can fly to Vancouver, Canada ($1300 one way), hire a boat to bring me to Blueseed ($$$$!!!!), and then pay $1200 per month to…..what? What will I do while on Blueseed? I can’t get a job with a U.S. company. I can beg people to take a 30min ferry ride from the mainland to give me a job interview…for a job that I can’t get because I don’t have a visa. I just don’t see where Blueseed offers me anything.

    If I’m going to go through the whole process of getting a work visa, why would I pay $1200 a month to live on a ship when I can get two roommates to split the $1800 per month rent for a 3 bedroom 1438 sq ft apartment in San Jose? That’s $600 per month and I’m right in San Jose…no waiting for a ferry to bring me anywhere. Again, I don’t see how living on Blueseed has any value.

    And since the Blueseed ship will be permenantly moored, how do you expect to get around Article 60 of UNCLOS? If the Blueseed ship was moving around you could avoid interference in the EEZ by claiming right of innocent passage. But once you are moored you become an “installation” or “structure” and the coastal state has “exclusive jurisdiction over such artificial islands, installations and structures, including jurisdiction with regard to customs, fiscal, health, safety and immigration laws and regulations.” What is your plan to get around this restriction?

    Now on to the technical, regarding your “reliable, multiple-fallback, high-bandwidth Internet connectivity”. What specific model of 1Gbps laser are you looking at? Do you have any cost estimates or legal information regarding submarine cable installation? You mention WiMAX buoys…are you looking at multiple floating buoys or fewer airborne ones? Do you have a buoy design, including power methods and maintenance schedules? Why aren’t you looking at off-the-shelf microwave transmitters or simply long-distance 802.11 wireless APs? I’ve been looking at the Korenix JetWave 2620 or 2640 which can give 54Mpbs up to 40km. I’ve also got my eye on Pixavi, which are shilling a 100mbps over 40km Xlink system.

    I ask mainly because I haven’t seen any point-to-point LOS 1Gbps laser systems that will go 12km. You’d have to get up pretty high to get a LOS that far.

    #16454
    Avatar of caveden
    caveden
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    You guys have been focusing on the visa thing pretty hard. “…provide an alternative solution to the US work visa problem” and so on. But right there in the middle of the FAQ you state that nobody living on the Blueseed vessel can earn a paycheck in the U.S. without a U.S. work visa. Plus you even say that people will probably need a business or tourist visa to get into the U.S. BEFORE they even get to the Blueseed ship. How in the name of all that is logical in the Universe can you sell Blueseed as the answer to the “United States’ current immigration and regulatory regime” if you need to get a tourist visa just to GET TO BLUESEED?

    Let’s say I live in Osaka, Japan. If I want to completely avoid U.S. customs or immigration law I can fly to Vancouver, Canada ($1300 one way), hire a boat to bring me to Blueseed ($$$$!!!!), and then pay $1200 per month to…..what? What will I do while on Blueseed? I can’t get a job with a U.S. company. I can beg people to take a 30min ferry ride from the mainland to give me a job interview…for a job that I can’t get because I don’t have a visa. I just don’t see where Blueseed offers me anything.

    It’s much easier to get a tourist visa than a job visa. Also, nationals of some countries – and I think Japan is in – don’t need any visa just to ender US. And finally, I think the idea is that you work on Blueseed (the companies would be there), only going to land when you need something there, or want to change airs a little.

    I have a particular question too. Why a boat? This has been discussed a lot on these forums, by people who seem to understand the subject (not my case!), and as far as I could notice, it seems boats are the worst structures for a seastead. Much more expensive, and shake as hell when there’s a storm. In the FAQ you say people wouldn’t get seasick, but I’m skeptical – I’ve been on a big ferry the day after a storm, and it’s impossible to walk on a straight line. People who tend to get seasick were having a really hard time there…

    Thanks, and congratulations for your work, I really wish you success!

    #16459
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    caveden wrote:
    It’s much easier to get a tourist visa than a job visa. Also, nationals of some countries – and I think Japan is in – don’t need any visa just to ender US.

    Thanks, I didn’t know about the Visa Waiver Program. There are 36 countries on that list, and Japan is one of them. But just because you come from a VWP country it doesn’t mean you can waltz into the U.S. There are several restrictions to travel, and one is you must prove you will only be in the U.S. for 90 days. You have to have a return trip ticket and a valid passport, and you get entered into all the Homeland Security databases. So I’m not sure VWP travel will be applicable for people coming to Blueseed. Also, as I read it more, it won’t work because “travelers planning to work or study cannot travel on VWP” so since you intend to work on Blueseed you can’t use the VWP program and must get a normal tourist visa.

    Now you might be able to get around this because you are just traveling through the U.S. You are entering the U.S. at the airport and then leaving the U.S. and entering Blueseed (i.e. the Bahamas). You might be able to do this with just a tourist visa. But now how do you get back into the U.S. from Blueseed when or if you need to leave? You can’t come into the U.S. from Blueseed without a valid visa, and you can’t get a visa on Blueseed because there is no embassy. Seems like it wouldn’t work…

    caveden wrote:
    And finally, I think the idea is that you work on Blueseed (the companies would be there), only going to land when you need something there, or want to change airs a little.

    Again, you can’t work on Blueseed (for a company based in the U.S. at least) without a valid U.S. worker visa. So living on Blueseed doesn’t help you get around the restrictive U.S. immigration policies. So if you need to get a work visa anyway, why live on Blueseed? You’ll be visiting the mainland often anyway to purchase supplies, cash paychecks, go to resturants/bars, etc. And you can’t go to land, even if you “want to change airs a little” without a valid visa. So if you can’t get a visa you are stuck on Blueseed for the duration.

    Now if the company is based on Blueseed, as in it is incorporated in the Bahamas, then you still have to worry about visa restrictions because the Bahamas does have a visa and immigration system. And if the company is based on Blueseed, what is it going to do? You can’t manufacture anything…not enough space or power and there’s noplace to send your stuff. I guess you could do information work (video game design, 3D modeling, data analysis) but these would all still be Bahama companies with their own restrictions.

    #16464
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i think the vision for Blueseed was to house silicon valley programming employees from other countries. and my understanding was that the workers would not make occasional visits to the mainland – the executives on the mainland would make occasional visits to the workers on the vessel. it gives them easier access to low cost programmers and still have a face-to-face relationship.

    but aside from all that. when i first bought into this entire seastading concept a few years ago, i thought the whole idea was that people would disconnect from the mainland ALTOGETHER. one major obstacle in that vision would be to get the STAKEHOLDERS of a vessel living permanently at sea.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #16491
    Avatar of caveden
    caveden
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    But now how do you get back into the U.S. from Blueseed when or if you need to leave? You can’t come into the U.S. from Blueseed without a valid visa, and you can’t get a visa on Blueseed because there is no embassy. Seems like it wouldn’t work…

    That’s a good question, I don’t know how it works. If you are just a rich fellow with a yatch and wants enter US by one of its ports, how does it work? Can you try to get the visa there (ports usuaully have immigration offices), or you must have gotten the visa before?

    I know US gov requires in-person interview to give a visa, what would prevent people in Blueseed from doing it by mail.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    Again, you can’t work on Blueseed (for a company based in the U.S. at least) without a valid U.S. worker visa.

    Blueseed is not US so you don’t need US visas to work there. It doesn’t matter where the company is from. I could work for Microsoft in Ireland without a US visa, in spite of Microsoft being a US company.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    So if you need to get a work visa anyway, why live on Blueseed?

    Another great advantage, which Blueseed is probably not marketing for in order not to attract leftist rage, is not having to pay taxes. Ok, rent and other expsenses are higher, but I imagine that for skilled labor in the end you preserve more of your money.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    Now if the company is based on Blueseed, as in it is incorporated in the Bahamas, then you still have to worry about visa restrictions because the Bahamas does have a visa and immigration system.

    Blueseed has a strong interest in choosing a flag which doesn’t impose its immigration rules to people in a vessel.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    And if the company is based on Blueseed, what is it going to do? You can’t manufacture anything…not enough space or power and there’s noplace to send your stuff. I guess you could do information work

    Yes, “information work”, that’s pretty much what’s done on Sillycon Valley anyway.

    #16531
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    caveden wrote:
    Blueseed is not US so you don’t need US visas to work there. It doesn’t matter where the company is from. I could work for Microsoft in Ireland without a US visa, in spite of Microsoft being a US company.

    Yes, if the company is based ON the Blueseed vessel you are ok. But if you are living on the Blueseed vessel, and you do not have a valid U.S. work visa, you cannot work for a company based in the U.S. So you cannot work for a company in Silicon Valley if you are living on Blueseed. That was what I meant.

    #16532
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    Since Blueseed will be in international waters, not US territorial waters, residents there can work for US companies without a work visa.

    #16539
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    admiral wrote:
    Since Blueseed will be in international waters, not US territorial waters, residents there can work for US companies without a work visa.

    But not as on-the-books employees who are part of the company. They can only be used as independent contractors or freelance workers.

    If a U.S. company wants to use an overseas worker they have to go through an outsourcing company like Wipro or Thuriam in India. In this case the U.S. company is not paying the workers themselves…it is a purely business-to-business transaction.

    Now if Blueseed worked as an outsourcing company that would be fine. Or if a resident of Blueseed, without a valid U.S. work visa, wants to work as a freelancer then that would work too. But a U.S. company cannot hire a full-time employee who is not a U.S. citizen or holds a valid U.S. work visa.

    If I remember correctly U.S. companies even have to be careful about the number of freelancers they use, since if they use freelancers to fill jobs that can or should be filled by full-time employees they can be penalized. Not sure about that, though.

    Hey, Blueseed has three immigration and political advisors…one of whom is a TSI board member. I’m sure they looked into all this stuff before they even began working on Blueseed, right? Any time Dan or anyone else at Blueseed wants to answer these questions I am willing to be corrected.

    Sorry, but this is looking more and more like a scam to me. A huge burst of media coverage in the last week or so and nobody is asking these simple questions. And they continue to call it seasteading.

    If you ask me, all this focus on Blueseed is a worse setback to the cause of seasteading than having links to inane rants on the front page of the TSI website. The more you link seasteading with profit-motive enterprises like Blueseed or medical tourism or data/tax havens the more the general public dismisses the seasteading movement as a scam or get-rich-quick scheme.

    #16541
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    would be nice if we could stick to “pure” seasteading the way Patri always talked about. i have had a situation in my life where i used a side-stepping plan to achieve my goals. it was a disaster for me, my 19th and 20th years of life – wasted. it would be terrible to see the leadership resources of this movement sunk by Blueseed. hopefully, worst case scenario, we’ll still be here to drag them from the wreckage.

    nobody thinks the disaster is going to happen to them. russel phillips never saw his coming. from a rising young star, to a pulp smeared along the track fence in the hair of a second. sorry to be mr. grizzly but i just wish Bleseed would drop it down on the incrementalism scale.

    i dont have a lot of business disaster stories but generally speaking, the worst accident videos on youtbe are ones where they went for “big air” without bulding up one small step at a time.

    (im fascinated by disaster footage and the question, “what the hell were they thinking?!”)

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #16544
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I used to adress smith with “Mr.Smith”. Well,… no more of that shit,…

    This stupid dude, “smith” posted the following:

    “Sorry, but this is looking more and more like a scam to me. (Blueseed). A huge burst of media coverage in the last week or so and nobody is asking these simple questions. And they continue to call it seasteading.

    If you ask me, all this focus on Blueseed is a worse setback to the cause of seasteading than having links to inane rants on the front page of the TSI website. The more you link seasteading with profit-motive enterprises like Blueseed or medical tourism or data/tax havens the more the general public dismisses the seasteading movement as a scam or get-rich-quick scheme.”

    Really, asshole??? You went beyond allegations,… straight to accusing Blueseed to be a scam??? How the F—do you know that? Now,.. who the F—do you think you are??

    Listen UP dude!! I am sick and tired of your BS! “Blueseed is a worst setback to the cause of seasteading????”

    No wonder we have the forums off the main page!

    Seriously now. Ken, …whoever,… we don’t need this piece of s—- “smith” here criticizing seasteading.

    C’mon TSI!

    YOU GOT TO START POLICING YOURSELF.

    #16546
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    first stationary colony? huh? so we just pretend that 10s of thousands of oil rigs (*poof) dont exist!

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #16547
    Avatar of admiral-doty
    admiral-doty
    Participant

    Stationary colony with long term residents who live as well as work there. People work in shifts of a few weeks on the oil rigs, so they don’t really live there, any more than a crew would be considered living on a ship as long term residents.

    #16550
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    admiral wrote:
    I don’t see where Blueseed would be considered a scam. The principals are from TSI management, and it is a legitimate start-up. Nowhere do I see any intent to defraud either investors or customers.

    Okay, maybe “scam” wasn’t the best word. But I stand by the intent. It looks like there is no way it will work legally, and I think they know it, but they are hyping it up and digging for investor cash anyway. While they may not exactly be a “scam”, it’s pretty close.

    Worst case for them, they got their names out there in the startup world and made a bunch of contacts. If (when) it fails they can go on about how the draconian U.S. government worked tirelessly to kill their legitimate business idea, and they become liberal martyrs.

    But for the seasteading movement, it is just another way for the media to link seasteading with failed get-rich schemes and “crazy people” who base their sceptres on plumbing tools. “Look at those crazy libertarians, trying to get around the laws and building floating illegal immigrant havens!!!”

    I mean, they even say they will setup right in the contiguous zone…the zone where the U.S. has full right to prevent “infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea”. I’m sure the U.S. can make a pretty good case that Blueseed infringes on its customs, fiscal, and immigration laws. No mention of that on the FAQ.

    I am, at least, heartened to see that the Blueseed folks are watching this thread closely. I’ve noticed several updates to the FAQ referencing just the issues I’ve brought up recently. I’m glad they are refining their plan…sad that they didn’t think of this stuff before hand. I’m just waiting for one of the news outlets to interview them, and really lay into them with these questions.

    #16551
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
    I used to adress smith with “Mr.Smith”. Well,… no more of that shit,…

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