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BIG WORDS/WORKS… little movement

Home Forums Community General Chat BIG WORDS/WORKS… little movement

This topic contains 33 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of shredder7753 shredder7753 2 years, 12 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #15631
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    let’s not jump the gun: I’m talking about having a meeting of minds and bodys of the potential participants so that we can eye-ball each other at a phisical location in the real world. As a first step, let’s see if we can get 3-10 people to show up to a meeting….

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of jtg423
    jtg423
    Participant

    I should have taken your comment in the vain of this forum…

    I would be ammenible to having a meeting anywhere on the east coast. But, yes, lets get some confirmations from people that they would even be interested in looking into the formation of a group/committee/business before setting down a meet-up location

    SeaGypsies – Mike and Katie, I will send you a PM soon to more fully elaborate on this discussion.

    thx

    JTG

    #15633
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    I get two weeks of leave coming this October, so I’ll be able to come to anything from the 3rd to the 17th but thats it. Once that leave is over, we are going to be heading right into re-structuring our organization for newer vehicles and weaponry, and I’m going to be beyond busy.

    #15637
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    yea im hoping to leave delaware about that time too. maybe i can time it so ill be driving past NC at the right time. im likely to have the first berg model with me, if not the second one too.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15646
    Avatar of dvd
    dvd
    Keymaster

    realpra wrote:
    I doubt that’ll be enough you see, we need an income source out there, not just a bunch of poor people looking for cheap condos.

    Exactly. Seasteads should be economically viable. So far the most promising business model, from the Sink or Swim contest, is using jurisdictional arbitrage to provide competitively priced and accessible IT services, and is being implemented by Blueseed.

    #15708
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    It is a matter of oppinion if Blueseed is, I quote “So far the most promising business model.” Personally, I wish them the best of luck and I hope they become a reality.

    Unfortunately, Blueseed venture faith is in the hands of Uncle Sam. Regardless of the fact that they will be located outside the 12 nm territorial US waters, they will still be insude the US’s EEZ. That wouldn’t have been a problem if it would have been a regular business. BUT, they are planning to bring onboard people without a US visa and offer them employment. Now, the All Mighty IRS will definately rise a eyebrow invoking UNCLOS Article 60.

    Article 60. Artificial islands, installations and structures in the exclusive economic zone

    1. In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State shall have the exclusive right to construct and to authorize and regulate the construction, operation and use of:

    (a) artificial islands;

    (b) installations and structures for the purposes provided for in article 56 and other economic purposes;

    (c) installations and structures which may interfere with the exercise of the rights of the coastal State in the zone.

    2. The coastal State shall have exclusive jurisdiction over such artificial islands, installations and structures, including jurisdiction with regard to customs, fiscal, health, safety and immigration laws and regulations.

    3. Due notice must be given of the construction of such artificial islands, installations or structures, and permanent means for giving warning of their presence must be maintained. Any installations or structures which are abandoned or disused shall be removed to ensure safety of navigation, taking into account any generally accepted international standards established in this regard by the competent international organization. Such removal shall also have due regard to fishing, the protection of the marine environment and the rights and duties of other States. Appropriate publicity shall be given to the depth, position and dimensions of any installations or structures not entirely removed.

    4. The coastal State may, where necessary, establish reasonable safety zones around such artificial islands, installations and structures in which it may take appropriate measures to ensure the safety both of navigation and of the artificial islands, installations an, structures.

    5. The breadth of the safety zones shall be determined by the coastal State, taking into account applicable international standards. Such zones shall be designed to ensure that they are reasonably related to the nature and function of the artificial islands, installations or structures, and shall not exceed a distance of 500 metres around, them, measured from each point of their outer edge, except an authorized by generally accepted international standards or a recommended by the competent international organization. Due notice shall be given of the extent of safety zones.

    6. All ships must respect these safety zones and shall comply with generally accepted international standards regarding navigation in the vicinity of artificial islands, installations, structures and safety zones.

    7. Artificial islands, installations and structures and the safety zone round them may not be established where interference may be caused to the use of recognized sea lanes essential to international navigation.

    8. Artificial islands, installations and structures do not possess the status of islands. They have no territorial sea of their own, and their presence does not affect the delimitation of the territorial sea, the exclusive economic zone or the continental shelf.

    If you read carefully, Article 60.2. says:

    “The coastal State shall have exclusive jurisdiction over such artificial islands, installations and structures, including jurisdiction with regard to customs, fiscal, health, safety and immigration laws and regulations.” The key word is “exclusive jurisdiction ” with regard to “customs and immigration laws and regulations”. With other words, the moment a vessel drops the hook inside the EEZ and STAYS there, it can be considered an artificial island, installation or structure.

    On the other hand, this scenario is highly unlikely since 12 nm offshore San Francisco the water is very deep and permanent mooring there is almost impposible. Therefore, the only logical solution for Blueseed is to DP (dynamic position) around there. But, lets not forget Article 60.7:

    ” 7. Artificial islands, installations and structures and the safety zone round them may not be established where interference may be caused to the use of recognized sea lanes essential to international navigation.” And there are major international shipping lanes offshore San Francisco. http://news.discovery.com/tech/shipping-network-map.html

    #15713
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    It is a matter of oppinion if Blueseed is, I quote “So far the most promising business model.” Personally, I wish them the best of luck and I hope they become a reality.

    ” 7. Artificial islands, installations and structures and the safety zone round them may not be established where interference may be caused to the use of recognized sea lanes essential to international navigation.” And there are major international shipping lanes offshore San Francisco. http://news.discovery.com/tech/shipping-network-map.html

    Blue seed is a boat….

    “Artificial Islands” require some kind of solid connection to the ground.

    large boats, and floating rafts are different.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #15715
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    i agree. hopefully the Blueseed guys have already considered that.

    ____________

    My Work II

    “Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”

    #15717
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    elspru wrote:

    Blue seed is a boat….

    “Artificial Islands” require some kind of solid connection to the ground.

    large boats, and floating rafts are different.

    I think you will find Uncle Sam, and therefore the UN, think differently. Besides, even if the terms are not defined elsewhere in UNCLOS, that means they are up for interpretation by the enforcing bodies, which means that those in control of said EEZs are the ones who can decided what you are and are not.

    #15719
    Avatar of tusavision
    tusavision
    Participant
    Mad wrote:
    elspru wrote:

    Blue seed is a boat….

    “Artificial Islands” require some kind of solid connection to the ground.

    large boats, and floating rafts are different.

    I think you will find Uncle Sam, and therefore the UN, think differently. Besides, even if the terms are not defined elsewhere in UNCLOS, that means they are up for interpretation by the enforcing bodies, which means that those in control of said EEZs are the ones who can decided what you are and are not.

    [/quote]

    Name one instance in human history where UNCLOS has been used against an artificial island.

    #15723
    Avatar of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    It not UNCLOS that matters, tusavisioin, but the fact that it is American waters of which we are speaking. They would not allow it, and UNCLOS would simply be one of the tools they used to impose their will.

    Im not sure if Im inventing this in my memory or not, but I belive I remember a ship full of chinese immigrants or something similar trying to enter a US port and the authorities refusing it, and it sitting off the coast for a long time, and the government threatening to consider it an aritificial island so they could deport the passengers. I’ll try to find it after football is over.

    #15726
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    I don’t understand about Blueseed Project is why start big offshore, instead of starting small in San Francisco Bay under a different business format,…see how it works, have it figured out and than move offshore. For example, the so called “short ferry ride” 12 nm offshore it won’t be that short and it will require at least $1-$2 Mil. working capital per year, depending how often that ferry will ride,…

    #15729
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
    I don’t understand about Blueseed Project is why start big offshore, instead of starting small in San Francisco Bay under a different business format

    Because they want to employ workers that do not have U.S. work visas, which they could not do if they were in the Bay. Since they are outside the territorial waters they are outside U.S. law enforcement. Or so they think.

    #15731

    I would say that the formal legal situation does matter very little in practice. If the project is percieved as something good you will have authority tolerance inside the bay. If it is percieved as something bad a form to shut the project down will be found.

    In practice US intercepts boats in the waters of Galapagos thousands of miles away from its coast . So if the project is percieved as “bring in illegal immigrants trough the back door” it will face problems no matter if it is 12 miles or thousand miles away.

    Ocean is probably right that “bring tackle bait and beer to bay sailors” will be a business model that takes a lot less risk on the authority front and will be percieved as a “good thing” and therefore be tolerated in the bay nearer to shore.

    Why loose a project just to make a political point ? – and why bet on a fragile business model that can run out of business if the imigration laws change.

    For now Indian electronics geeks can not get a visa in silicon valley because the tumb majority represented by populist politics do not want indians to take over silicon valley and they think that visa politics is a apropiate tool to get there.

    stupid? – maybe – but it is mayority will.

    Seasteading will not get popular nor widley supported in adopting business models that force things against majority will.

    Conflicting business models of all kind should be avoided – at least in the first rounds…and if you go conflicting take something that has little yellow press cover like stem cell research – avoid poplular themes like immigration.

    Bringing up emotions against seasteading in yellowpress in the very first round can be a strategic suicide for the movement.

    “How Seasteading plans to Export your Job to India” – is not a Headline we want to have.

    It would be smarter to design the first generation of seasteads as “floating service stations” for tourists, yachties, ship repair, freight transfer, harbor service, instead designing them as “political statement” against the establishment.

    “New sailing destination 3 miles off shore – floating island welcomes visitors” – is the kind of headline we want.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #15735
    Avatar of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    “How Seasteading plans to Export your Job to India” – is not a Headline we want to have.

    What would be even worse is “Possible Terrorists Living 12nm from US Coast!”

    No way they are not going to have customs and immigration all up in their decking…

    It gets very worrisome when all the seasteading initiatives have to have a commercial or criminal aspect to them. They are either tax havens, money laundering schemes, casinos, etc. I’d really like to see a seastead initiative that has TSIs own values as the sole reason for starting. As a new governments, not some way to make a quick buck.

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