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BaseStead strategy

Home Forums Community Dreaming / Crazy Ideas / Speculation BaseStead strategy

This topic contains 47 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Pastor_Jason Pastor_Jason 5 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 48 total)
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  • #5355
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Octavian,

    We buy for a few reasons. One: this is the perfect time to buy. Two: If we’ll be interacting with the local community for some years before “launching” the actual seastead, it helps if we take ownership of our land. Three: Basestead will not cease to be upon the first Seastead launch. Four: Financial commitment will be the initial bond that unites the group (it’s hard to leave if you’ve put 10k into something).

    I imagine that once we spend some time together the people of basestead will split into two groups. Those who will be a part of the launch and those than will stay behind. Those that stay would do so for a variety of reasons… maybe they don’t get along well with the original group that launches, maybe over the last couple of years they’ve decided that seasteading isn’t for them, or maybe they wish to help others accomplish the dream of seasteading by opening up basestead to a new group of willing participants. Some of the businesses created to support basestead might not transition easily to a seastead and thus would have to stay behind, along with the staff to keep it functioning.

    Basestead will also serve as an anchor to civilization for the Seastead(s). If a seastead has a large crop of fish they need to haul in, the basestead can negotiate the deal and make the arrangements for when they arrive. Basestead can get their hands on goods needed by the seastead and send a shipment out. Personnel can be transferred when needed. Basestead will serve as a “home base” for seasteads and a fall back position should some emergency force us to abandon a seastead.

    The following decisions need to be made regarding basestead:

    • Where will it be located? In the US? Abroad?
    • Who will go?
    • How much will it cost?
    • How will basestead be self-governed?

    I absolutely do not want to be a “manager” for basestead. I am quite happy to give my two cents as we design basestead and will be very excited to participate in the community as a founding member. I also plan to be on the initial launch if everything goes well. I am content to live in a society that is free (as long as it does not break the laws of the land while we’re on land), peaceful (I do not want to worry for the safety of my wife and children), and productive (everyone works… everyone eats).

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5372
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    The timeline may be depressing, and I hope that it is pessimistic, but given the consistent history of overpromising and underdelivery in the nation-founding field, I would much rather be conservative in the timeline. This is a timeline I think is achievable. I would be delighted to see seasteading happen much faster. It is “Liberty in our Lifetimes”, if not as soon as we would like it. Lots of people have tried to build cities on the ocean, they have all failed utterly – I think we need to have great respect for the difficulty of the problem and break it into very small steps each of which take years.

    I agree that having a presence “on the ground” is very important for TSI. Our strategy is to work on both theory and practice, and keep them connected. In terms of practice, I am actively working with a for-profit startup doing medical tourism on ships. We are trying to design and build a small seastead in the SF Bay in the next year or so. Building real things that we can take out into the ocean is incredibly important. That’s also why we are holding the Ephemerisle festival – it won’t be on the ocean the first year, but we are working in that direction, so people can actually experience the real ocean environment.

    Just a quick correction, you wrote: “ClubStead. Build a floating resort/casino in the SF bay.” We have no plans to build anything large in the SF Bay ever, since it is within the territory of the US. We plan to build a small BayStead which we can take out into the ocean for trips, and lives in the Bay, but ClubStead is meant to live either 12 or 200nm offshore.

    As James mentioned, we started designing ClubStead before the economic crash, because we thought we could get it funded. In which case, as I expect you’ll agree, we would be doing exactly what you suggest – creating a product and seeing how it works, so we can iterate on further designs. Unfortunately, shit happened, and now we have a design which (while useful in many ways) we cannot fund. This has put us 8 months behind as far as building and operating a physical seastead. It was a mistake, and it is unfortunate, but it was a mistake of tactics, not of strategy. We want to design and build something as soon as possible.

    “Certainly a lot of effort is expended on discussion of designs. This is in spite of the fact that no one really doubts that seasteads are in principle feasible.”

    I encounter doubt that seasteads are feasible – or at least that they can be cost-effective – almost every day. So this just ain’t true.

    I don’t want to sit around thinking about designs forever, but if we are going to build something that costs hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, let alone tens of millions, I think it is worth spending tens of thousands of dollars on testing and analyze various designs! Concrete is rather less refactorable than code, and mistakes are fatal rather than just embarrassing, hence it behooves us to get the first try right. The instinct to just start programming is a great one for the web. I don’t think it is a good instinct for the ocean, and while you make a good argument for the business case, you seem to be ignoring important differences between naval and software engineering.

    People building bridges and buildings don’t “Launch Fast and Let Their Ideas Evolve”. It doesn’t work with large fixed objects. Seasteading is a combination of large objects and businesses and social groups. The latter can definitely benefit from quick dev cycles. The former – not so much.

    #5373
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    Fascinating thoughts on strategy, Dan. The closest I had come to thinking about basesteading is the idea of a residential community seastead that is developed incrementally, where a group moves to a city with a harbor and spends years building a seastead, moving onto it, moving their income generation onto it, eventually moving the structure further and further from land. So they have safety and civilization the whole time, and can steadily wean themselves from civilization.

    I am very skeptical of an unsettled island as a base. It sounds like you get all of the costs of being on someone else’s territory, without any of the benefits of civilization. All the costs of being remote, as Vince points out, but even worse because you have very few people to share them with. I wouldn’t want to invest much in fixed resources when the parent country could kick us out at any time, and the territory is governed by someone else. I would much rather invest in something mobile.

    Using a ship as a base is somewhat problematic because for a ship to be stable and comfortable, it needs to move, or be in a harbor. A ship outside a harbor and not moving will naturally turn its broadside to the waves and roll horribly. I have been increasingly in favor of using ships as the first step for seasteading, but unfortunately they have to keep moving, which means any structure we build has to keep moving with them in a flotilla.

    I guess I am generally worried that your basestead is at an awkward point on the freedom / civilization curve. A mobile seastead in the ocean has limited civilization but significant freedom. The community of seasteaders in the SF Bay area has limited freedom but enormous civilization. I question whether the increased freedom of Belize or Anguilla is worth the extra expense and decrease in amenities and infrastructure.

    As far as your option #4, a seaside plot in an established country, I would be delighted to see an intentional community of seasteaders form in the USA. If you come to the SF Bay Area, there are many people here already. New Hampshire would also be a fertile place, I think. Florida and San Diego, perhaps Seattle, have advantages as well.

    #5375
    Avatar of DanB
    DanB
    Participant

    Patri wrote:
    The closest I had come to thinking about basesteading is the idea of a residential community seastead that is developed incrementally, where a group moves to a city with a harbor and spends years building a seastead, moving onto it, moving their income generation onto it, eventually moving the structure further and further from land. So they have safety and civilization the whole time, and can steadily wean themselves from civilization.

    Right, so we’re on the same page here. My only problem with this strategy is that it doesn’t seem to offer a real increase in freedom in the short term, where short=10 years or so.

    Patri wrote:
    I am very skeptical of an unsettled island as a base. It sounds like you get all of the costs of being on someone else’s territory, without any of the benefits of civilization.

    Yeah, I also think this is probably a bad option, but I think there’s some non-zero probability of finding a government which would allow us to use the island or even encourage us to do so. Anyway, not really worth arguing about.

    Patri wrote:
    Using a ship as a base is somewhat problematic because for a ship to be stable and comfortable, it needs to move, or be in a harbor. A ship outside a harbor and not moving will naturally turn its broadside to the waves and roll horribly. I have been increasingly in favor of using ships as the first step for seasteading

    The rolling issue seems to be one of the main problems with boats. But the technical problem of reducing the rolling effect seems much smaller than the technical problem of building a seastead. What if we double-anchor the boat somehow so as to make sure that it aligns perpendicular to the waves? What if we park in an area with low wave amplitude? It seems like this problem should be solvable.

    Patri wrote:
    I guess I am generally worried that your basestead is at an awkward point on the freedom / civilization curve. A mobile seastead in the ocean has limited civilization but significant freedom. The community of seasteaders in the SF Bay area has limited freedom but enormous civilization. I question whether the increased freedom of Belize or Anguilla is worth the extra expense and decrease in amenities and infrastructure.

    This argument seems strange to me. People on this site presumably are willing to trade large amounts of civilization for small amounts of freedom. My reservations about the tax haven country option is that it might require jumping through lots of legal hoops.

    Anyway, I don’t have a strong preference between base choices. The US is the easiest for me, too. Probably the best idea would be to get a group of interested people and take a vote about which option to pursue.

    #5376
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    I think the idea of a Belize/Antigua basestead has many benefits Patri. The U.S. is an extremely expensive place to live compared to most countries. Belize and Antigua have much lower costs of living and still provide all of the resources one needs to run a successful business, like broadband internet and decent utilities. I know everyone has different ideas for seasteading, but I would imagine basestead cranking out the smaller residential/familial units which would gather into a community.

    I completely agree with your perpective of trying and testing out designs before sinking a huge amount of resources into a full sized model. The problem is doing this via forum is great for idea generation but terrible for ACTUAL experimentation. Living in a self sufficient community with a focus on seasteading would enable a community effort to be put towards working out this process. I think one of the big reasons these national building efforts have failed in the past is the lack of action. Basestead is an immediate step anyone can take.

    Sure it’s risky. So is this project! Why mitigate a risk that must be a part of things? Why delay making the “leap of faith”? I think the beginning of seasteading will truly come to light within the community of basestead. Some of the dynamics you can’t wait to experiment with (social engineering, experimental government, society of freedoms) can be done during basestead instead of putting off something you desire for soooo long. We’re all growing, and ten years from now you will likely have a new focus in life… one you can actually act one. No vision or dream can last inside of a man for very long without some action. I fear that you’ll be able to accomplish seasteading but by the time you do you won’t want to do anything with it as those desires past and only the seasteading project remained.

    Honestly, I think Basestead would suffer without the presence of those who first dreamed of Seasteading. Your leadership in basestead I think is neccesary and I hope you would seriously consider what keeps you in the SF bay area. You dream of leaving everything you know there… why not leave it sooner rather than later? This entire endevour is visionary. Make the inquiry of those who have gathered here… if you would go to found basestead, who would go with you? Let a group of us put our hands to this work together and see what becomes of it.

    Worse case scenario. After many too many failures (failure is to be anticipated and is our best tool to learn from) we decide Seasteading is not within our reach (I don’t believe this will occur). Was basesteading still not a fantastic experiment? Are each of us not completely better off for the time we spent together? The only regrets I carry in this life are the opportunities I let pass me by to live something greater than myself. I believe Basestead is such an opportunity, the seed of something fantastic that may benefit the entire world. I don’t see many chances to effect change on a global scale everyday. Do you?

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5394
    Avatar of vincecate
    vincecate
    Participant

    Patri wrote:

    Using a ship as a base is somewhat problematic because for a ship to be stable and comfortable, it needs to move, or be in a harbor. A ship outside a harbor and not moving will naturally turn its broadside to the waves and roll horribly. I have been increasingly in favor of using ships as the first step for seasteading, but unfortunately they have to keep moving, which means any structure we build has to keep moving with them in a flotilla.

    You can use a sea anchor to keep the boat pointed into the wind, which usually means it is pointed into the waves. Fuel usage just to keep pointed into the waves would be really small anyway. Most stabilizers only work when a ship is moving but there are types that parked boats use too. Search “anchoring stabilizers”. So it is not really as bad as you make it out.

    Sometimes you can break down a problem into logical steps that make getting through to the finish easier. Sometimes we add extra goals along the way that make it take longer to get to the finish. I think basestead is like the second. It is putting something extra in the path so it will be more costly and take longer to get to where we want to go. Getting rights to live and work in another country for a number of people and setting up businesses there is a lot of work, money, and time. Getting rights for your wife to work on the island seems particularly hard. If the plan is to soon move to a seastead, then much of that effort is really a waste.

    As for the cost of living, I think 15 years ago the cost of living in Anguilla was less than in California because land/rent was so cheap here. But the rents have gone up. Food, electricity, restraunts, and anything you would buy are much more expensive than in California.

    So it would make no sense to me for TSI to fund people moving to tropical islands. And I don’t think it should even be part of the plan. But I did move to a tropical island and I do like it. So leaving the US for someplace else is not a bad idea for some people.

    #5403
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    I don’t think TSI should “fund” a group moving out of the U.S., but I do think a community should be started and there are locations outside of the U.S. that would be financially better and offer the freedoms many of us seek. Anguila might be more expensive than Cali, it’s not my expertise. Belize on the other hand is much cheaper, by an order of magnitutde. Many native Belize live just fine on 8k a year.

    If TSI would make a move, of any kind, to develop community now (rather than waiting for a seastead platform to be built for us to work on ‘getting along’) they could “pave the way” and show others how to follow. This would provide those followers with local connections to establish themselves in the TSI community. The problem with many “nation building projects” seems to be lack of action. Basesteading would stop pointless chatter and encourage useful experimentation and actual work to be done.

    As for wasted effort, I disagree. How much time do each of us spend shopping for food? How much do we pay a month for communication and entertainment costs? What about your mortgage payments? The costs go on and on. By working together as a single community we leverage a simple economy of scale and reduce these daily costs and time wasters drastically. While we experiment with current technologies we can impliment on a seastead, as well as the actual design itself, we will be living the social experiment and developing some of the economic experiments simultaneously.

    What you may see as a hurdle I respectfully submit to you as a stepping stone. Consider the benefits against the cost. To take another route would be to slow down the creation of Seasteading. This effort is the natural approach to growing something, and the Seasteading movement is just that… an organic living creature growing slowly from the seedling.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5415
    Avatar of Jeff-Chan
    Jeff-Chan
    Participant

    Some comments:

    1. The goal should not be to get away from civilization, but to create new civilizations that structurally support freedom instead of gradually taking it away as most existing systems do.

    2. A workable business model is probably the single most important ingredient needed. Medical treatments and scientific research seem excellent to me because they are high value, etc. Banking is highly restricted and controlled, and IT isn’t high value enough given that much of it has already moved to India, etc. Gambing is somewhat attactive except for the moral issues, but in practical terms Las Vegas is doing poorly in the recession, so it may not be a great business model either. Gambling is clearly not essential. Medical care is clearly a growth industry due to aging populations, etc.

    3. Ships are needed to support seasteads, and they are a place to do any of the above, so they’re a logical stepping stone. Ships can also be easily resupplied by pulling into port. They can be repaired or refitted in port also.

    4. Analogies with startup companies are apt for the business models, but not for the physical designs, etc. If your startup company fails, it’s not a huge deal; you can start another one. If your seastead fails, you may die. So it’s vitally important to get the design largely right. If you’re doing a software startup, you can hack on the code endlessly, modify it many times, build multiple new versions in parallel, etc. Software startups are almost the exact opposite of a seastead: hardware costs are minimal and intellectual capital is at a premium. A seastead is hardware capital intensive, and designed and built only once. Patri’s building or bridge analogy is good.

    5. Building a seatsead will cost at least a hundred million dollars. Having a workable business model, tested on ships first, may be a good way to help get the hundred million or more dollars needed to build a stead. Show that it can make money.

    6. Third world countries may be more economical to live in, but do they suffer from a relative lack of access to capital or ship/platform construction?

    7. Regarding uninhabited islands, they are all owned by some existing nation. Those nations will not allow the unrestricted or anauthorized use of them. On the contrary, they will physically stop you if you try to settle them, etc. They’re also generally too far from capital, both in terms of people and money. Ships are much more practical.

    #5425
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    There are a lot of comments regarding the “cost” of seastead construction. How big of a seastead would you get for your $100 Million price tag and who would build it? Octavian seems to think he can build a model for a small group for a fraction of that cost. (I look forward to seeing construction begin on your personal flotilla, BTW!)

    How will we find the seastead design that works the best? This is what basestead was designed for. A place of experimentation where future seasteaders can work together in a tightly knit community, similar to the one aboard a seastead, to advance the design elements at a much more rapid pace than we now see. The very design and implimentation of the first seastead is a “movement”, so why not treat it like one. Patri and Wayne (and Vince), you’re our leaders… so make a move and invite others to follow. Many won’t… some will.

    We don’t have to all think exactly alike either. (infact CNN just covered a story about that kind of wasteful work: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1888696,00.html?cnn=yes )

    We’ll all be working towards a common goal: make a seasteading a reality. Once we can get on the waves, others will follow. Once there are a few of us floating out there, we’ll all find communities that we’re most comfortable in. The more communities, the better we’ll all be able to find a “fit” that’s just the right blend of freedoms and liberty.

    Personally, I’d rather do something than talk about it. I do my own little projects, but I’d love to be able to cooperate with my neighbors to accomplish larger projects. If basesteading doesn’t pan out, then hopefully I’ll have an algae system ready to provide energy for the seastead that you folks make after all this talking. Based on the conservative timeline, it looks like I’ve got plenty of time to refine my processes. If there is a chance that some of us could “make a move” together and cooperate on this, I want in!

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5465
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    After reading all your comments , and giving them a lot of thought, I am trying to sum up some guidlines for the Basestead concept, and hope you will have some feedback. The basestead shud be GOOD,CHEAP & FAST. I now that everybody thinks that these 3 are exclusive,….but give me a min. here,…What is a GOOD basestead? Boats are nice (love them) but it will be almost imposible to built seasteads on them (will contradict CHEAP). Islands,..nice too ,but it would also cost a lot to inhabit, and also built the seasteads there. Foreign countries property, maybe,…but getting there,setting camp, language , cultural barriers,..will contradict FAST. “Seaside plot of land in an established country (e.g. USA)”-that is GOOD, because will be CHEAP (specially now) and FAST (we are here!!). What is CHEAP now? If a seaside land in US is agreed to be GOOD than it wont CHEAP nowhere in US to buy,…The logical option than is to lease a location (like a small piece of land w/a shop ) strictly for the manufacturing of the seastead there.-that is CHEAP. A small group of us will live close by and manage and superivise the whole project. What is FAST? Well this is a big one….Immediately organize a group of people decided to impliment Basestead strategy and put some money into it. Lets say 100 @ $ 5k each. Immediately decide on the design, test, and get an estimate. Choose 20 of 100 w/expertize in 20 fields pertinent to project as the guys to manage and supervise. Get GOOD & CHEAP, add FAST and start building and lunch modular seasteads one after another and bring the rest of the 80 pp to take occupancy of the seastes.Finish and go.

    #5470
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Octavian,

    Your idea of Basestead seems to be a variation of the Clubstead idea. The element of basestead that is missing in your above suggestion is the actual community of basestead. What you have is a large pool of investors with a small pool of workers to churn out a limited product. Basestead should be a land based (or possibly ship based) seastead community. We’d focus on building the basestead first, erecting buildings and basic infrastructure as the group had need. Then our focus would shift to seastead experimentation, construction and implimentation. By the time we launched, we’d be a well established community just transitioning to complete freedom on the waves.

    To argue the overseas = bad idea, there are other countries that speak english as their main language. Australia, New Zealand, Belize, etc. Where ever we go we’d need to “set up camp”, so that arguement applies to all locations of basestead not just foreign soil. Interacting with other cultures isn’t a negative at all, infact I think the first group of seasteaders would benefit from being shaken from the cultures they have lived in all their life. What better way to forge a whole new culture and seed the beginnings of a culture never before seen beneath the sun? None of the english speaking cultures is too far removed from what we are used to anyway, so it shouldn’t present a huge hurdle.

    There would need to be an agreement including an initial financial investment that lays out responsibilities, exit strategies and a system of governance. These are not my forte. Thought I would be happy to help build a conservative estimate for basestead and participate in developing any systems of managing the whole affair, I feel that someone else would be better suited to being the headman of such an effort.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5475
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Indeed my ideea is a bit different since I wanted to implement the FAST aspect,….faster. We are all different in terms of the “how to”,….And I have to admit I have the sailing bug deep down my skin. Still, for me (no offense pls to other ideeas) would be a waste of money and time to buy land, built housing,etc,…which could run into millions of $s for waterfront property and then start building the seasteads. Wouldnt be wiser to start building immediately and use the time and money to sea trial the seasteads and train everybody to beacome a strong united crew? I wasnt putting overseas basesteads down, was just saying that they wont be as FAST as starting something here in U.S. Personally I would love setting up camp in Belize (or Guatemala, on the Rio Dolce river-a lot of gringo sailers there) since the english speaking, cheap living and labor and mainly due to the proximity to the Belize Reef, which would be exellent for the turism based share of the seastead economy. The finacial agreements can be worked out. We are all decent inteligent people (I hope:-). Ultimately, Jason, I think is a matter of DECISION. We still have to spend more time planning, analyzing, and come up w/a blueprint that would be satisfactory and appealing to ALL how would like to get involved, thus, making the decision process much easier.

    #5494
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Octavian,

    Fair observation. I also suffer from the “sailing bug”. Moved into the mountains of Virginia 3 years ago from the North Shore of Long Island… I didn’t think I’d miss the ocean this much, it’s like it’s in my blood. My daughters (the youngest has never seen the ocean) are both fish like their daddy and are quite at home in the water. I wonder if once out on the ocean for long enough, we’d begin to long for the land again. I’ve never been out long enough to feel that.

    It would seem that most people participating on the forums enjoy the talking but aren’t for the action as much. Since there are no large bodies of water close by; my experiments have focused on renewable energy, small area agriculture, and simple methods for pure water/pure air production. My idea of a basestead would require a community of interested participants. It looks like your solo operation seems the most workable. How many people would you need on your personal sized ‘stead?

    Make sure you post when construction begins. I want to see it.

    Live Well!

    -Jason

    #5514
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster

    As this continues to simmer in my mind, I am becoming more appreciative of the idea. I’m so glad we have smart people thinking independently about strategy, like you, Vince, and Steffan.

    DanB wrote:
    Patri wrote:

    I am very skeptical of an unsettled island as a base. It sounds like you get all of the costs of being on someone else’s territory, without any of the benefits of civilization.

    Yeah, I also think this is probably a bad option, but I think there’s some non-zero probability of finding a government which would allow us to use the island or even encourage us to do so. Anyway, not really worth arguing about.[/quote]
    Yeah, A lot of people have suggested to me lately that we try to get a free trade zone, or other kind of concession from a small existing country, as a way to start small and not have to deal with the ocean. Sure, we would have to worry that they would someday withdraw the agreement, but it could be a good place to start experimenting with self-government and remote income and self-sufficiency. So perhaps there is something to this strategy.

    DanB wrote:
    Patri wrote:

    Using a ship as a base is somewhat problematic because for a ship to be stable and comfortable, it needs to move, or be in a harbor. A ship outside a harbor and not moving will naturally turn its broadside to the waves and roll horribly. I have been increasingly in favor of using ships as the first step for seasteading

    The rolling issue seems to be one of the main problems with boats. But the technical problem of reducing the rolling effect seems much smaller than the technical problem of building a seastead. What if we double-anchor the boat somehow so as to make sure that it aligns perpendicular to the waves? What if we park in an area with low wave amplitude? It seems like this problem should be solvable.[/quote]

    I have no idea why I said this. A ship is a great base. Maybe it has to move most of the time to be comfortable, or be in harbors most of the time, or avoid places with big waves, but that is all compatible with being a basestead, right? And as you point out, we can experiment with ways to make it more comfortable.

    it seems to me that this fits very well into my cruise ship condominium scheme. A cruise ship condo could be a basestead – it fits your definition of a base: “The problems of living on a base are well-understood and -solved. If a group of people decided they wanted to form a community on a base, there are no technological problems stopping them.”

    DanB wrote:
    Patri wrote:

    I guess I am generally worried that your basestead is at an awkward point on the freedom / civilization curve. A mobile seastead in the ocean has limited civilization but significant freedom. The community of seasteaders in the SF Bay area has limited freedom but enormous civilization. I question whether the increased freedom of Belize or Anguilla is worth the extra expense and decrease in amenities and infrastructure.

    This argument seems strange to me. People on this site presumably are willing to trade large amounts of civilization for small amounts of freedom. My reservations about the tax haven country option is that it might require jumping through lots of legal hoops.

    Anyway, I don’t have a strong preference between base choices. The US is the easiest for me, too. Probably the best idea would be to get a group of interested people and take a vote about which option to pursue.

    [/quote]

    Yeah, I totally take this back. An uninhabited island seems weird to me, because it has huge infrastructure challenges (although not waves), yet you are trapped in one place and have no political freedom. But a ship, a tax haven country, or a first world country all sound like great places to gather. I’ve written up a related (short) proposal for Seasteading Outposts to further explore this possibility. We could merge these pages or split them into multiple pages if you want. Your page had a lot of long strategy arguments, whereas I wanted to just make a short argument for having a base, and focus on using the page to talk about where it is and what people do there.

    #5516
    Avatar of Patri
    Patri
    Keymaster
    Pastor_Jason wrote:
    Honestly, I think Basestead would suffer without the presence of those who first dreamed of Seasteading. Your leadership in basestead I think is neccesary and I hope you would seriously consider what keeps you in the SF bay area. You dream of leaving everything you know there… why not leave it sooner rather than later? This entire endevour is visionary. Make the inquiry of those who have gathered here… if you would go to found basestead, who would go with you? Let a group of us put our hands to this work together and see what becomes of it.

    Thanks, that is a very kind thing to say. I will certainly consider moving to a Basestead.

    The reasons I can see not to are:

    * If it would make my wife and son unhappy.

    * Being physically located and involved in a single seasteading group might make it harder for me to lead the global seasteading movement, because I am wrapped up in one group and approach.

    * It’s harder to reach potential donors, grow the movement, from an out-of-the-way place. I don’t think this is a very strong argument – it is already a global movement, so I already have to fly places for it all the time.

    * Less networking. I have found the SF Bay area very advantageous for things like, well, meeting our major donor and our employees and many of our volunteers, making contacts with other futurist nonprofits, etc.

    Anyway, all that said, I would certainly consider joining a BaseStead project, and if one comes up I will discuss it with my family, the TSI staff, and Board. The cruise ship condo project I am thinking about starting is one possibility for a BaseStead.

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