March 23, 2009 at 1:57 am #5283
Jason and Horton,
Note that within the seasteading umbrella there are LOTS of differing goals and agendas. Some people want hippie communes, some people want floating Hong Kongs, some people want sustainability, some people want to disconnect from the culture, some people want to build a city on a hill. The main thing we share is the desire to get outside the current political system. I think the goal should be to do that in the fastest, most direct way possible by building the first seasteads. After the demonstration of feasibility, there will be a proliferation of different groups constructing seasteads for their own purposes.
Jason, good point about bringing work with you. Maybe what we should all really be focussing on is finding a way to make money remotely. But also I think that if 20 of the guys on this board showed up in Belize without a clear money-making plan, we’d be able to cook something up, probably IT related.March 23, 2009 at 3:02 am #5284
Jason, what kind of planning and development permissions are required in Belize? I’m asking because I’m wondering if a group of people were to buy a large piece of land, what trouble would they have building various structures to facilitate more people as they came? Are their suitiable pieces of land available with water, electricity, and sewer or percable? If so how much would they cost?
It seems like you could get property in Texas and do what want on it. The FLDS comes to mind. They seem to have been able to build at will without planning permissions. I bring this up because it still cracks me up because the US seems to be the last place anybody wants to build a freedom seeking enclave. How ironic because according to George Bush, everybody hates us cuz we’re free.March 23, 2009 at 3:41 am #5285
Is it a revolution or a relocation? ’cause in my book seasteading is a revolution,…Now, is nothing wrong w/a relocation leading to a revolution….What i am saying here is that a seastead will provide many sources of revenue. Its a fact. Imagine,…we build the first seastead, the newest nation on Earth. What do you think is gonna happen? Well,…first, everybody would want to visit=turism=visa=$s. Turists spend money=$s. We have a seastead,….we fish,…we sell the fish=$s. We have wind and solar power=we make hydrogen=we sell it=$s,….make water=sell it=$s. We buy diesel, we resale=$s. We do salvege =$s. We charter for oceanografic research=$s. We might find sunken treasures=Big$s. While in tropical waters we culture pearls=$s. We grow da kind,…we sell it (locally-:)=Big$s. We are offshore banking=Big$s. Oceanfloor mineral exploration(pure gold down there sailors)=$$$$$$s. I can go on and on and on. All we need is a seastead and some cash. This IS my money -making plan. Anybody?March 24, 2009 at 1:20 pm #5291
Though I share your desire to make something happen on the quick, I’ve leaned on the experience of many ex-pats to form my opinion on “bringing income with you”. Those that manage to bring an income with them have exponentially better chances of “making it”. I’m just trying to be as practical as possible. Remember, a big part of Patri’s plans involve realism rather than idealism. Besides, if I move somewhere with my wife and kids I better darn well make it work for their sake. =)
LOL!! Yeah, you can do whatever you want in Belize. No building codes/inspections/planning permissions unless you are building in one of the large cities and even then it’s mostly just a $100 bribe to the right official (all gov fees typically amount to bribery… an unfortunate truth). Hard to get sewer, but it’s easy enough to build a septic system to meet our needs. Electrical and water are easy enough, though I’d personally like to see a self-sufficient community that uses some of the technologies we talk about with seasteading… namely PV solar power, rain water capture with a dehumidifier to produce pure water.
I wish things would work the way you laid out. The first seastead would be a bit rough and would not likely be too suitable for tourism. It is highly unlikely that a single floating platform would be granted status as a “nation”. Many revolutions are bloody affairs, I’m more of a fan of keeping off the radar and not making waves until we have sufficient power (economic & diplomatic rather than military) to make an issue of our nationality. In the beginning, it is very likely that we will not do things as efficiently as our land bound neighbors. Fish would not net us large profits and fishing ships are designed to maximize their fishing efficiency while our platforms are not. Pure water isn’t a marketable commodity on the world market, only in severely poor areas and even then few can pay for it (why they don’t have a pure water system already in place). The chance of striking gold, making decent money in slavage operations, or finding lost treasure initially is nearly zero.
This thread is focused on the “how to” of making the first seastead. It would seem better that a group of us move to a single location that provides us with some of the increased freedoms we are looking for while allowing us to grow as a community and begin the building process of the first seastead. Talking on a forum will only get us so far… and debate without experimentation will never reach any conclusions. I can talk for hours about using algae to harness solar energy on a scale better than any PV system but until I build a model that functions and can prove my assertations than I’m just blowing hot air and not accomplishing anything.
If we’re looking to get rich and stay connected to the world economic structure we might as well stay on land. I’d rather be “rich” in my exercise of my freedoms and the capability to provide for myself and my family without leaning on the corrupt systems in place across the planet. I’d be wealthy in that my decendants (through blood or instruction) would share in my freedoms to build a world and a culture as they see fit. I would be able to, as an individual, be completely in control of the overarching government structures that rule me… because the moment we find ourselves in conflict we detact and I move to a governmental system that suits me better. You can have your seastead full of currency from nations that are floundering under their own weight. When all that paper can’t even purchase a loaf of bread for you, you’re welcome to attach yourself to one of the communities and do your share to produce the basic neccesities of life for the community.
At least… that’s how I imagine it…
-JasonMarch 24, 2009 at 5:13 pm #5294
is that, one way or another, if a seastead will be built the seasteaders will be involvoved in a few or all the economical activities that I enumarated above,no matter what. I am not looking to get rich but happier. After all a happy man is a rich man, or @ least that’s how I look @ it. I also dont care about “recognition” as a nation or whatever from whoever nation or U.N. no matter if the seastead is 60′ or 2000′. There is no need for that, fanfare, national anthems, and nationalistic “pride”. Its only one family here, as we say in Key West, One Human Family. I do have to disagree w/u on the following: there is big bucks in fishing; there are sunken treasures to be discovered yet(10 billion$ on the bottom of the ocean-not me saying this but a statistical fact); and there is money in salvage, http://www.marine-salvage.com/members/, actually big money. As w/ships, Jason, people choose their own course in life. I got my seastead design, its tested and ready to go. I will start building a 60 footer, finish, go, and never come back. I am just sharing some ideeas w/you guys. My regards, Octavian.March 24, 2009 at 5:28 pm #5295
Jason, are you a real pastor? Just curious. You talk in visionary terms which many good pastors do.
Rain water capture would be feasible for water. Belize gets a LOT of rain apparently.
I’ve talk to my wife about this. One issue is stangely the proximity to snow skiing and boarding resorts. I think you either have to go to the US or else very far south like Chile or Argentina. That would be a problem because my kids like skiing and boarding.
I still have a good mind to buy a piece of property somewhere in the US and start a self sufficient alt community of some sort. Again, talking in terms of making a living, the idea is that you meet subsistence requirements for people via just being there and labor exchange. Anything people do after their subsistance labor is for their own enrichment.
My view is that only when you free people of the burden of subsisting will you actually have a revolution. If you can offer that to people, you will have droves showing up at your doorstep. Whether you want droves is another issue, but you will definitely have them in my view.
Most revolutions are economic, not politically based. You have to be very observant to see the political oppression taking place in America, and most people don’t at this point. Any political movement needs to have an economic kick to it, IMO.March 25, 2009 at 5:14 am #5298
Just saw this thread, and haven’t had a chance to read everything in great detail, but wanted to respond to a few points.
DanB, I appreciate all of the strategy input. You have a lot of good suggestions and many of them are on target.
Our strategy isn’t currently very clear, I know. We’ve been working on a strategy document for several weeks that will be coming out to the community at large for feedback soon. I’ll send you a draft shortly, but it should give a -lot- more insight into the paths we’re envisioning towards making this a reality. But I want to be clear that this is a communication issue — not a lack-of-strategy issue
I agree the current seasteading timeline is not fast. We wrote that up favoring predictability above excitement — we want to be able to stand by what we write. That said, we are going to do a more optimistic version of the timeline in Q2 — a set of stretch goals, if you will.
Part of the reason we haven’t gone the “launch fast” route is due to how the economy unfolded with ClubStead. We expected it to be much easier to find investors for such an endeavor when we started down that design path in mid ’08. I think it was a mistake. Now, we are refocusing on much smaller, more incremental steps, like a “single family seastead” or ship-based businesses (which you also suggest) — see some of Patri’s recent blog posts for more thoughts on these topics.
I’m sure I’ve missed many of your points; I apologize I haven’t had the time to review this in detail right now. I’ll endeavor to if I can, and will also send you a draft of our strategy doc when the next revision is complete later this week.
JamesMarch 25, 2009 at 1:25 pm #5299
Fair enough. It would seem you’ve done your homework on this one. I’ve always felt fishing would provide us with a large part of our diet, but with a little peak into some aquaculture companies it would seem you are right… this can actually be a fantastic “cash crop” for us. As much as I hate the thought of staying in the world currancy system, fish would be an easily marketable commodity anywhere, and we’ll need to trade to keep everything on the seastead running efficiently. I’d love to hear your plans for a seastead!! I’ve been focusing more on the habitat domes on the sea floor in shallow waters and stuggling to get the design to be mobile. Tell us about your 60 footer!
Yes I am a Pastor in real life. I don’t exactly fit the stereo-types in some ways… but then again does anyone? I share your feelings about political oppression but also see the economic oppression that our nation inflicts on it’s own people as well as others overseas. We only have the wealth that we do because we oppress it out of those less fortunate. Ignorance is bliss… the more I become aware of these evils, the more I feel I can no longer be a part of such a society. I’m originally from NY and love playing ice hockey, ice skating and snow boarding. We’d have to leave Belize for a week or so every 6 months, I’d likely hit the States to see family and maybe this would feed the need for some snow fun.
Belize does get a LOT of water but it’s not constant. A second source is needed during the dry season. I know an ex-pat that built her cabin completely off the grid and she uses 3 sources of water(rain, well and nearby creek). I agree with you that a self-sufficient community is EXACTLY the step I need prior to Seasteading. I’ve been eyeballing Belize for some time for this very reason. However, due to the Belize economy being linked to the U.S. Dollar it’s only a matter of time before the U.S. influence can reach us in Belize. I want to be in the ocean by that point.
I look forward to seeing the planning document. No one on this thread has accused TSI of not planning, we’re just refining our thoughts about a topic that hasn’t been communicated yet. If you look over this thread in detail I think you’ll find several participants have forwarded useful suggestions. I know it’s helped me refine my own plans.
-JasonMarch 25, 2009 at 8:20 pm #5300
I already posted the design under “structure designs”, “Waveland….”. My 60 footer is based exactly on that design. This “kite module” (KM200) shown here @ 200′ http://wiki.seasteading.org/images/e/e0/002.JPG will be 20′. When 8 KM20 will be finished they will be rafted up as shown here http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Image:007.JPG to form the 60′ x 36′(beam) w/ a lagoon (read,… my own private pool:-) 20′ x 12′. For propultion I have chosen an electric engine, Thoosa 17000 (equivalent diesel HP:52 HP), http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf. All of the 8 KM20 will have ample batteries banks [8 x (8 x 12)] and 7 will have wind generators(as shown) + solar panels to recharge the batteries. Under my estimates, the whole system will give me unlimited cruising autonomy and power for @ least 3-4 years(depending on the use). My plans are to start building sometime this summer in Oriental NC and when ready head down south into the Florida Keys sometimes in the fall of 2010.March 26, 2009 at 1:10 pm #5308
Let me know when you start building, I’m in Virginia and would love to take a look at the construction process. I took a look at all of your images and I’ve been attempting to use your “kite pattern” in an effort to increase the modularity of my own design. How exactly are you going to live on 8 connected 20×12 units? That gives you a single room per unit and moving between rooms strikes me as somewhat difficult. Also, do you have family/other passengers coming along for the trip?
How have you figured out the food production vs. daily consumption issues? Do you estimate these small structures will be able to withstand an ocean storm? How are you controling the multiple platforms from a single location? Are you keeping battery banks on each seperate unit or are you wiring the 8 of them together? How are you producing freshwater on your seastead? Have you thought of using wave energy to produce electricity since you already plan on having 8 seperate units connected?
-JasonMarch 26, 2009 at 8:30 pm #5313
you are very welcome to stop by and visit, and check out the construction procces. Dont know yet if i will construct in ferrocement or fiberglased marine plywood. I dont have family but a girlfriend and a dog. The dog would love to come:-),…dont now about the girl. In terms of living on it, every module will have openings in the middle of its topsides that will allow passage in between modules 002.JPG (file). Food production will be hard on a 60 footer. I will have vegetable gardens but most of the food will be stores. Navigating the platform will will be like a push tug barge operation. The stern module will be the one w/an engine and steering, so it will push the whole seastead. The 8 x (8×12) will be wired together as a “propultion bank”. There will be a separate “house bank” for lights, pumps, etc. For fresh water i will use watermakers. No wave energy production yet. When i will be stationary,…maybe, but i dont think it is as efficient as wind an solar. So i dont think I will bother. Now, Jason my ideea was to build these modules @ 40′ or 60′ each as a homeseastead for a family or group of individuals. Then build 8 of them raft ’em up for a 120′ or 180′ seastead. Now we would have a big enought one to do some food growing, catch some fish and sell it or bring some passengers aboard, etc. The problem is finding this group of people commited to that and ready to do it,…If in between now and then we can get some people to commit i will gladlly look into it and adjust my plans acordinglly. My regards, Octavian.March 27, 2009 at 1:39 pm #5317
I’m beginning to understand your concept better now, thanks! What kind of timeline are you looking at for building your personal 8 modules? I think if you could get it floating and show it’s stability you would have a small group of people/families immediately interested in working with you on the larger kites to make a go of steading. How stiff a connection will these kites be linked up with? Too stiff and it may cause structural stresses. Not stiff and you’d have trouble connecting them with electrical and plumbing conduits.
Further refinement of greenhouse use/hydroponics for optimal food production in a limited space would be a good area to study while you’re building. Fish can be raised in an enclosed floating net that can be towed by your seastead and this free floating aquaculture system is already in common use. I’d be curious to see just how much power you’d need to use vs. the power production available in your plans with wind and solar.
I am excited about what you are doing. When you’ve got something to look at, even if it’s just the start of construction, let me know and I’ll pop in for a visit.
-JasonMarch 27, 2009 at 7:22 pm #5325
I’m no modderator, but I’d like to discuss Oceanopolis’ design over on the original thread: Waveland-Modular Mobile Offshore Base.
As for some of the other basestead discussions:OCEANOPOLIS wrote:
….one way or another, if a seastead will be built the seasteaders will be involvoved in a few or all the economical activities that I enumarated above,no matter what. …I do have to disagree w/u on the following: there is big bucks in fishing; there are sunken treasures to be discovered yet(10 billion$ on the bottom of the ocean-not me saying this but a statistical fact); and there is money in salvage, http://www.marine-salvage.com/members/, actually big money. …
Some of those activities fall in the category of ‘someday’. Particularly mining and treasure hunting. There may be $10 billion on the bottom of the ocean but it’s a huge ocean, a vast majority of which is yet unexplored. It can take years to find a shipwreck if you already know where to look.
I, too, feel that selling excess fish and other ocean resources is one easy way to help find a balance between self-sufficency and dependance on the land. These are resources that we’ll already need to invest in harvesting to help us survive, so finding ways to take in and sell the extra is a logical choice.
Salvage work generally requires the right equipment. That generally means a large boat. In such a case, you might as well live on your boat. This would be no different than being a professional salvager, I think. For those considering the slower-moving, seastead designs it might not be a good fit.
The original idea of having a fall-back point on land is good, as is the drive to get out there and start building. Getting on the water to test ideas rather than merely discussing them also has merit. I guess my hesitation would be that I think you should at least have 1-2 feasible small-scale designs to start building before you take that first leap. Concerns about having a means of income (or at least survival) also have to be accounted for before most people will take on the rest of the risks involved.March 30, 2009 at 7:55 pm #5345
It would seem that Ocean’s got a fully fleshed out design that could be under construction soon. The leap to basestead would have more to do with community than with the technical seastead stuff. I’m about to go spouting off opinions about basestead that may or may not be the original author’s intent, but here’s what I think:
Basestead should be for doers, not dreamers. I can fetch good ideas off the net when-ever I need them for free, putting an idea into action is what basesteading should be about. Originally we’ll need to have a sustainable income that we can bring with us to the basestead. I know how difficult this is as I’m mid-way through to converting my income to be a transferable one. Communities are not made up of individuals… they’re made up of families. Families of one are welcome. After we purchase our “basestead” we’ll need to work on developing it into a self-sufficient community. After looking over a few successful “communes”, we’d need a minimum of 5 “families” to make this work.
-JasonMarch 31, 2009 at 8:07 am #5350
Yes mining the seabed wont be a seasteader gig. But providing a platform for a company who is, yes. For example, it will cost a 200′ exploration vessel about 5 tons of diesel (or more) to deploy 1000 nm offshore (round trip)+ man hours+ misc. expenses. If we are there, I am sure that it would be $ wise for everybody to hire us and fly their researh crew there for a fraction of the cost. So I think it would be wise to provide for that scenario. I do have to agree that a seastead wont be actively involved in searching for treasures like Mel Fisher or Dr. Ballard but since we are out there why not have the latest sonar scan the bottom and a small submersible,…just in case. After all you never now in life, and Mel Fisher did score $1 Bil. with the “Atocha”. Yes a seastead wont act as a salvage company, but @ many times at sea, assistance is rendered for those in danger. Is not for a fee but a moral duty in most of the cases. And in most of the cases the salvor will get a salvage fee to compensate for his generosity and resources spent during the salvage act. “The principles of salvage and salvage law have evolved over many centuries. A fundamental concept is that the salvor should be encouraged by the prospect of an appropriate salvage award to intervene in any casualty situation to salve the ship, property and, in particular, to save life and prevent pollution. The salvor’s right to a reward is based on natural equity, which allows the salvor to participate in the benefit conferred to shipowner, the ship itself and the ship’s cargo.” All I was saying is that why not get involved a little in everything that can make us money out there since we are there anyway. Also, some of the equipment needed for theese activities can be used in different areas and have multiple economical use. A small submersible can double for taking turists for a ride on the bottom, the sonar for locating fish, the fishing boats for salvage, the cranes for unloading goods on the seastead to lower exploration crew modules on the bottom, etc. I definitely like the idea of Basestead. If we are to do yhis one day, we have to take this “Think tank” from cyberspace to realspace. I do dare to say that no matter what a Basestead will be the next step in seasteading. It is almost imposible to build a crew on line,..As a seasteader no matter what your job is onboard you will have to get familiar w/the seastead as a whole and interact socialy w/fellow seasteaders. There are things @ sea that are done a certain way and they will always be done that way (actually a bunch of them:-) and cannot be tought under way,…or Capt. Ron’s way, “No worries skipp, if it happens, will happen out there.”(kindofa’ like that one). I also belive that Basesteading will speed up the seasteading process. It is a fact that we ,here are on different levels as biological individual timelines(age?), financial situation, spiritual development, etc. But we are bound by the same goal. By Basesteading we can compensate thus moving faster forward towards that goal. I know it might sound a little like socialism(and thats a dirty word in this neck of the woods) but actually is not since the seasteaders will own the seastead which is productive property. Neo-distributism? I like “DISPESATIONISM” better. I wouldnt mind , Jason. But why buy if we gonna built and go?,..Actually just realized that in this market buying is a good ideea. Few years down the road, when ready to go, sell it for a profit and thats the capital. But what if the reccession turns sour and long?
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