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ArkonSeaStead will post when lease signed

Home Forums Community Dreaming / Crazy Ideas / Speculation ArkonSeaStead will post when lease signed

This topic contains 28 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of tramp tramp 2 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 16 through 29 (of 29 total)
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  • #16754

    Hello sandy, i hope your thread is not intended to start another lengthy and completly useless “how do i shape my fantasy seastead” thread. We already had all kind of shapes discussed and it makes really very little sense to discuss that – as a seastead – if it comes to life – will have habitation units of all sizes, and shapes just like any other city and can not be monopolized in “one fits for all” sistems. It will be a work in progress with form changing all the time.

    What is clear is that it can not be built in normal naval engineering technique (steelplate) like a ship as this implies 80.000 USD cost per day maintenance shedules (like a ship or oil platform) .

    It is also clear that it must be some form of concrete honeycomb modular structure – that can be built outside a drydock in floating status and keep growing for ever.

    So the really important questions are how will building cost and maintenance shedules cook down in cost per day per squaremeter of living space, how do we get a minimum building site in place in kiribati (or whatever your 99 year lease is) for a start up, in what kind of budget universe the project is located…

    It is obvious that it must be a chambered structure of some kind – see : concrete honeycomb structures

    It is also obvious that it must be somwere along the lines of floating concrete structures that exist today and have proofed their value see: outstanding floating concrete structures

    The interesting part of your thread initial statement was “lease 99 years now” – so this sounded like actually doing something in real world – and have a plan for it – and it also sounded like the seasteading outpot belize thread – just that you would not buy territory but lease access – as it was suggested in the scout for a location thread which is a much smarter way.

    Have you done any scouting already do you have a rough plan that you can share so that we can have clear in what kind of financial, and building set up universe this thread is developing?

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16755
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    Wil- I agree. However, in the beginning these first 18 units WILL be all alike, like rooms in a cheap motel. Their being alike means some shipbuilder (or 2-3) can make 6 or 9 alike with a cookie-cutter, and cheaper than if each different. The occupant can make / finish the inside different, to their taste. They will be moored temporarily to a 150 m pier until 3 seawall city modules can protect them from open ocean, or a small permanent seawall is built.

    Once the initial site is set up, participants can build / tow whatever they want into the community. These will not be steelplate, but reinforced concrete plates, with rebar on edges welded to adjascent piece, then the joint sealed. After the concrete cures for say 30 days in the sun, applysealant then coat of lite blue epoxy paint or that special anti-fouling kind.

    The main center seastead island WILL have a structure like the honeycombs pictured in your references, but slightly different. I have sketches but not sketchup model to show yet.

    So, can you get the rough, crude cost estimates from your contacts in the shipyards there? or should i try and find my own contacts here in asia? The government i’m talking to takes a break now, like governments everywhere, and will be back sometime in Jan 2012. He has assured me the piece of land i require will be available. We have not discussed exact terms yet, but he agrees in principal.

    Hope this adresses your concerns for the moment. Happy Sailing, sandy.

    #16756
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    Wil- The cost estimate i’ve made if i were doing one in a borrowed back yard, cos i dont have one is like this:6 plates 5.5m top, 5.0 bottom (so top little wider, waves splash outside) gives- 157.5 m2 – Bottom and floor 260 m2, Mech room 60 m2 -All this times 5cm= 25 cubic meters concrete, costed at $100 per m3, plus $10 per hour labor x 500m2, plus $3 per m2 rebar and mesh.Yields $9000 for 3 non-luxury living floating spaces.

    As an aside, in my younger days i have laid a 5 x 7 m slab 20cm thick with 2 others helping. It took us 7 hrs, and i was exhausted, and the old helper died the next day. After 10 years use as a driveway apron it hadnt cracked other than a little crazing.

    Also in 1960 i worked the summer in Gulfport Shipbuilding Corp. in Port Arthur Tx. At that time we were working on a 200x60x30m floating drydock, named i think Honshu Maru, and a seagoing tug, Marion B. Moran. So i have some idea of how things work. I can braze and cut with a torch, have cut 20mm steel plate. I can use a buzzbox arc welder, but would need to practice some more for MIG or TIG.

    The central island as shown on my splash page, will be 7 stories high, and extend down 10 levels. My plan is to build the lower part with 90 hex tubes 100 m across, with the outer ring going down 2 levels, next in 4 levels, next in 6 levels, like that. Then when joined put a big hex pad with 10m high rim on top, tow into place, and build up the 7 stories on-site. I would solicit quotes for this from DaiWoo or Samsung Heavy Industries.

    Hope this adresses your concerns for the moment. Happy Sailing, sandy.

    #16757
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Since ArkonSeaStead seems to be a micronational project based on a leased island that is part of the territory of an existing island-nation, why is this a seasteading project? If a seasteading micronation is the goal here, why bother spend money on that 99 year lease, and then spend more money on a seawall and a central structure?

    Instead, just built a concrete floating island to start with and sailaway flying your own flag, with a much higher degree of autonomy than being locked inside somebody’s else sovereign territory,…It will be cheaper :)

    #16758
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    Oceanopolis, the ultimate goal is a floating micronation, which is the goal of every seastead. . . I thought.. . . However, we are practicing ‘incrementalism’. heh. The first step is a BASESTEAD, as i’ve read about in many other posts. Here we will start practicing community, and helping the islanders join what parts of modern civilisation they wish to. We will also be building more and varied floating family-sized seasteads in addition to the small cookie-cutter floating motel rooms i propose first. When we have 3 SeaWall City modules, housing 1000 seasteaders each, we can start the central seven story island on my splash page. Or when we finish a small scrap concrete seawall on the eastern side of my 150m pier that my cheap motel modules are attached to.

    Hope this covers the confusion. Happy Sailing. . . . . . sandy.

    #16759
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Somehow, the idea of BASESTADING or SEASTEADING OUTPOST, didn’t work out to good here. For example, the SOBIZ thread, while similar to your concept, became the longest and ultimately a boring failure, since nothing came out of it. And keep in mind that was supposed to be in Belize, 600nm south of here, not in the South Pacific, 6000nm from here. I am not saying this to discourage you, far from it. Just heads up. Because if you think that the people dwelling around here will just jump on your wagon fast,…you’d better make sure you live to be 150, lol.

    #16760

    how remote is the right dose for a project – you certainly need a certain dose of remoteness to be “interference free” but if you build the project so remote that you are out of business and out of opportunity – it is just too remote…

    You might want to check on the “cost of logistics” numbers to build a simple airfield on a pacific island during WW2 to get a realistic perception what kind of logistics and cost universe you are talking about when talking about a “fleet of cargo ships”…maintaining a flow of galley store and building material….for a small human settlement….those are words thrown out quick and economic in the blogsphere – but mayor efforts in real world…

    For a realistic approach on the right kind of remoteness a location scouting approach like suggested in the caribbean location scouting thread might be indicated.

    Wil

    #16761
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    I just finished reading 5 pages of Making Money = Making Resources, and have some pertinant comments.

    Several nay-sayers said in effect, ‘Most nations produce food, energy, and water so cheaply we couldnt compete.’ Well, yesterday they did because of cheap oil. Tomorrow when oil goes higher, we become competative. Not long after, clean water will cost more than oil. Ever try to drink oil when you’re reallly thirsty?

    It takes about 50-100 m2 to grow food for one person for a year. So my cheap motel modules will have cheap agri-pods available to connect to for growing potatoes, ganja, green beans, tomatoes, etc. There will be chicken and pig modules as well which process manure into methane (natural gas). One module of steaders could grow beans only, and trade surplus with one growing pigs. There are some breeds of cattle that are smaller than we’re used to for commercial meat. I havnt researched this, but have heard about them. Also, vat grown beef may be feasible soon.

    Hunter-Gatherer’s spend/spent about 40 hrs per week staying alive, so in our spare time we’ll make more seastead modules. The K’ung bushmen collect mongongo nuts for most of their protein, and when asked why didnt they plant crops replied, ‘There are plenty of mongongo nuts. Why bother.’ So they avoided the deadly switch to sustained agriculture our ancestors fell into. We are for the time being stuck with it. But lets get some mongongo nuts to plant in the meantime. heh.

    In the 60’s the USA conducted research on Thorium nuclear reactors but rejected them because they didnt make plutonium for weapons. Now India says they are going to develop thorium reactors. They have beaches full of thorium. We could copy theirs or develop our own.

    I believe the folks reading, lurking, and posting on these forums are clever enough to solve ANY problems which arise that havnt been talked to death already. We need to jump in an get our feet wet. heh.

    Welcome to the WILD WET.

    Happy Sailing, sandy

    #16762
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    Wil, a lot of pacific islands have useable runways left over from the war. Mine does.

    sandy.

    #16763

    don’t know the idea of taking land based agriculture to a seastead does not look convincing to me – i would rather look for a food production adequate for seasteading along the lines of aquaculture and later may be open ocean fishfarming

    A left over runway is certainly an asset – but have you calculated that a decent seastead – the size of a one family house – will have a weight of roughly 500 tons – (no floating gardens and pigstal included) – so you will need to transport at least 500 tons of building material to your island by air freight just to solve your personal housing needs – not yet talking about building a community – just solving your personal housing needs – have you asked for a quote of 500 tons airfreight to mid pacific? – and this is just to get a roof over your head – not talking of build up a self sostaining economy you can live on…

    So what is the quote of airfreight per ton to your island, what the cost of shipfreight per ton? – how many tons of diverse material between building material and potatoes do you plan for, to sustain a “community” – the only material you count with locally is coconut…

    The reason why so many idyllic tropical islands are uninhabitated is that they can not sustain human populations – not even small populations with a polinesian lifstyle and know how – not even thinking about “modern populations” with the material, energy, social, and entertainment needs as people have today…

    My captain nemo float out concept for example is going with 100 tons of load capacity as kind of minimum for maintaining a group of 2-4 people independent and self sustained during a month. But the concept is based that you can move around and get supply in a similar way as the Moken people do – just more global . What is much easier than create a society from scrap on a remote island bringing in anything by air freight …

    Wil

    #16765
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    Wil- Like i say on my webpage, ‘Time’s a Wastin’ and i’ve answered most of your many questions, while i have asked you only 2 in post #16. Are you / can you answer them?

    As to the carribean, 1) i have a 99yr lease in the pacific, and 2) google- uturuncu volcano bolivia….in mabe 2 yrs there wont be a carribean. Its been bulging 1 inch per yr over a 60 mile area since 1990. It erupts every 300,000 yrs, and last blew 299,999 yrs ago. you do the math. heh.

    Happy Sailing . . . . . sandy.

    #16767

    Hello Sandy, sorry i have not answered your questions to cost estimates from post 16 yet.

    It is basicly answered in the number crunch section here.

    A building cell of 2 man with basic tools and building materials can crank out 1 ton (metric) of structure per day – in the inital phase when the structue is still below 20 m size and you need to settle the building site, you build at 480 USD / ton.

    In a later phase when the structure has reached 20m and you have overcome most initial issues, and work on a “established and refined routine shedule” you might get it done at 166 USD / ton.

    The project parameters are that you build some kind of concrete shell structure afloat , with no drydock, nor cranes, nor heavy equipment and movements involved. The material and workforce cost base is caribbean – so i assume in asia you might get similar numbers.

    This kind of project set up also takes for given that you can get all your materials and tools from a nearby hardware store within a two hour boat transport radius, and that you transport with your own boat at a cost of near cero at a 2 times weekly base – and here is where your project setup seems to differ most from my pilot project set ups in cartagena the freight cost to your island is a unknown factor to me, also the cost of establish human presence on the island in first place and maintain it – so i can not estimate that clearly – my educated guess is that those costs are tremendously high…multiples of the worksite cost – in a conservative approach.

    So uturuncu may blow up but this kind of stuff is not really a top of the list concern when crunching building cost numbers on a scouted seasteading site.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    #16910
    Profile photo of sandy
    sandy
    Participant

    Sandy – Minister of Future

    czek my site ArkonSeaStead.org

    The Senator i’ve been working with said he will send me a MOU regarding the 99 yr lease by the end of the year, and i will post it on my

    website 2 JAN 12,012.

    Merry Christmas,Hapqy New Year, Live long and prosper.

    Happy Sailing . . . . sandy.

    #20651
    Profile photo of tramp
    tramp
    Participant

    hmm maybe justa other liberatrian fraud?

Viewing 14 posts - 16 through 29 (of 29 total)

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