Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures
May 28, 2011 at 6:17 pm #13616
not VUALA, lol. But you’re excused, you’re a gringo
You do have a good point Shrredy, in terms of the elements of design. I also think that having open green spaces on the “roof” (the upper deck) would be very desirable. Also, incorporating in the design, a room with a underwater view would be also very nice. I think Wil has posted a video of one of his designs ( 2011-12 “something” ?) that was really cool looking and similar to what I was talking about. Can you pls. repost that, Wil?May 28, 2011 at 7:34 pm #13621
is what I first read, lol.
I wish I had something constructive to add, but the whole thing really has been hashed out pretty well.
We have a couple (really great) ideas for seasteads with functional profit models, but the start up and operationg costs of them are so huge, it would essentially be building our own real-estat bubble (no pun intended). To get enough people to come on board with a project of the scope which those projects are, and thus make the venture plausible and not an artificial market bubble (referring to creating a supply before a demand is in place, just to be absolutely clear) we would have to first spread the awareness and plausibility of seasteading.
Thus, we have to start small. There are plenty of ways to do this, and they all have merit. We each like our own particular flavor of starting project, and thats one of the major advantages of seasteading in and of itself. We can have submersed, submersible, semi-submersible, and floating structures all coexisting in the same area. The sea is three dimensional, and we can take advantage of that. Seasteading also offers solutions for everyone, and we can take advantage of that too.
To start it up, though, we either have to work in our own groups towards our own project goals, or band together and focus on only one single avenue.
I guess we could also try to “convert” somebody with the means to persue a larger scale project, but we can wish in one hand and shit in the other, ya know?
Ive got some years left in the military myself, but once out seasteading is something I truly intend to pursue on a full time basis. Perhaps the best idea for us now, rather than building working models of our own starting ideas, would be to try to find a way to either a) profitize the awareness of seasteading, ie find a way to market it and make money doing so (dunno how), or b) either start another non-profit or help TSI build up to the point where small scale but practical work can be done on things like building working scale models, and thus conducting stress tests on our different ideas, hold galas for possible investors, etc.May 28, 2011 at 8:21 pm #13623May 28, 2011 at 9:37 pm #13608
Unfortunatly steel floats barges, old ships, oil rigs, barril floats, etc… are only “appearently viable” real estate options for people who have no idea (or forgot to calculate ) what the maintenance cost of a steel float involves. Not even oil/gas industry can afford the elevated cost of the maintenance shedules that are required to keep such structures afloat . This is why they are switching to concrete floats instead. Floto would be by far better off in using catamaran concrete floats as the ones built as a experimental pilot project in cartagena.
This kind of floats used like the bambus bundle in the asian housboat concept have a maintenance free service life of 200 years. That is the kind of base you can build real estate on. Another option for a “everlasting base” for a floating house is a segmented concrete float base like the “cube assembly float” .
The novelty of the equatorian coast guard base consists in taking the widley used “house on a concrete float” concept from protected waterspaces into a “quite unprotected” oceanic environment.
The video shows that although it works – they seem to have quite unpleasent movements. The base has about 20m island diameter. So putting together the evidence we have a 20m diameter island that rocks too much and we have a 40x100m island (nkossa) that does just fine.
Conclusion : living on a floating platform considerably smaller than Nkossa in open water sucks – but it can work in a protected bay.
What CAN work for smaller structures in open ocean is going below the waves.
If you break it down into real estate figures. A cubic meter of living space in a surface float house and in a “below surface living space bubble” have exactly the same cost – but the comfort level (when exposed to open sea conditions) below surface is by far higher as long as the structure size is smaller than city block size.
concretesubmarine.comMay 28, 2011 at 10:32 pm #13625
I think the best way to get started is to cook it down to a simple real estate deal. You produce 1 squaremeter of useable space at a cost of USD 166 and you can sell that space at a price of at least 2000 USD.
Any real estate agent can understand that business, any investor and any bank can understand it. It looks feasible and desireable business in any business plan.
This is why we should not go with “complicated turnkey concepts” but simply try to establish a fabrication site for “floating real estate squaremeters”.
Creating oceanfront real estate by building sandbanks is a fairly common and well understood business that is going off on large scale in Dubai and other locations. It is a central paradigm of the real estate business that space can not be created but is limited – especially oceanfront space.
Concrete float solutions expand the sellable real estate to the water – this should be a desireable business field for investors that normally have no affinity to “boating” of any kind.
So to start with i would just sistematicly mass produce floating “empty building lots on the water” and offer them for sale. This is a simple deal, with a never ending pool of possible customers, easy handle for established real estate businesses.
The bay of cartagena for example is a hurricane free water space that is completly open for that kind of developments. A wide and empty protected waterspace surrounded by skyscrappers (some built by donald trump) – ready to do business.
My current development budget for floating installations in cartagena is limited to USD 5000/month. As you have seen on the pictures i can only crank out a few experimental squaremeters of floating real estate in small scale pilot projects in this finance frame.
But even so i already got requests for float out all kind of touristic and industrial installations. If i had a couple of floating platforms ready for sale at this moment i could sell them all…
It is of essence for the “guts understanding of the business” that buyers can step on their “empty building lot” and understand that this is not a kind of “boat” – this is solid real estate ground – ocean view.
concretesubmarine.comMay 29, 2011 at 5:05 pm #13629
Seasteading Inc. would have a similar function as the East India Company or the railroad in the american settlement of the east.
The east india company created the trail and the matrix the settlers, the merchandise and the business men could follow . In our case we need to create the solid platforms where business of all kind can settle and take place. The east india company used a combination of sail ship and trade posts. We should use a combination of concrete float technology and real estate development.
It is always a business venture combined with the exploitation of a newly available technology that pushes the settlement of new frontiers…. it has been the sail ship, the railroad, in the past.
What we need now is to get the financial power of the East India Company behind the concrete float technology to develop the ocean frontier.
concretesubmarine.comMay 29, 2011 at 9:17 pm #13632
im ticked off. why is it sooo hard to get any consensus on this. we need a basic design for a starter architecture that can gather financial support and actually do something! (makes a shrill sound like wicked witch of the west, melting) im melti-i-i-ing!!
at least Seasteader- finally dissappeared. feeling better, somewhat.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”May 29, 2011 at 9:19 pm #13631
(double post)May 29, 2011 at 10:12 pm #13634
shred, we do need no design. We need to be taken serious in our discussion, and your last post is not necessaryly helping that people read this, follow the argument and come on board. What keeps seasteading from happening is not the lack of a DESIGN – it is the lack of money for building solutions where living and business on the water can happen.
When the railroad opened the west for settlement the design of the trains and the houses was a “no theme” at all. What was important was opening the space for settlement. A simple floating squaremeter space production site is enough to open the waterspace for human use.
Real estate business needs just “building lots” – not necessarily “designed houses”. The idea that seasteading is a “Design contest for a winning design that must be applied to everybody” is a concept error.
Seasteading is an effort to bring serious people to a new business field. The best way to get there is to offer something simple that a existing real estate agent can understand. “Building lots where there where none” is such a simple thing.
We look for a floating private island that by definition leaves the use as open as possible so it can be offered and adapted to a large amount of different “potential customers” for all kind of private and business uses – like a building lot – we do not look for a final pre selected house design to be applied to all seasteaders. The more design you put into it the smaller becomes the market to which you can sell.
something like that is what you can sell to almost everybody who needs space. We do not need a design, we need a starting point and a ongoing real estate deal – that is what we need.
concretesubmarine.comMay 29, 2011 at 11:02 pm #13635
elmo – ur addicted to slapping me in the face. first u say “shred, we do[nt] need no design”. then by the end of your post u say “We look for a floating private island that by definition leaves the use as open as possible so it can…”. THATS a design, we need to agree on a design concept dammit!
i agree it should be something neutral, but the industry wont go anywhere until we have an offering that is marketable to a significant swatch of the available buyers!
and u still never gave us a balanced opinion about the bergstead. you advocate for the substead. you advocate for flat simple platforms. but you dont care at all about combining the two!? does anyone see how that could be frustrating to me!?
and we’ve seen the pictures so many times. they’re nice. thank u mucho.
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”May 29, 2011 at 11:19 pm #13636
several different motorised carriages were developed before 1900. nowadays, u have hundreds if not thousands of different designs from all different countries/makes/models/years available to choose from. there was one event that is widely credited with making the automobile available to the average joe; the introduction of Henry Fords assembly line. what we need now is that breakthrough development. we dont need Mr. Benz, we need Mr. Ford to come along and revolutionize this thing.
Richard Allens Bergstead concept is the best platform design to date. It comes in standardized sizes so they can ALL be linked together. The mini-Bergstead, Bergstead, and larger versions can all be linked together as a community grows. The mini is 10m, the regular is 25 m. 2 regulars can link to 5 minis perfectly. The design works with fractal tiling. when used as a residential structure, every owner has their very own yard! and theres no reason they cant be used for businesses too!
“Leadership and do-ership are not the same thing”May 30, 2011 at 12:42 am #13638
shred, don’t get me wrong it is not my intention to go against or in favor of any design – i find your cubestead a nice design that can have a place in seasteading – why i postulate the “NON DESIGN” is mostly because i find the design discussion is leading us inevitably into a bad direction where we point our attention in a direction that is not healthy for a seasteading movement.
Seasteading can only work as a business when a seastead can function in a wide array of different business fields very much like a oceanic port city. In a oceanic port city there is no place for standardisation of dock connections and predesigned lego sistems.
A oceanic port has to deal by definition with almost anything that floats , comes along, for doing trade, business, tourism, etc… from a cruiseship to a sailing yacht.
If you put a “bergstead technology only” sign on your development you cut your lifeline from the very beginning – this is why it will not happen “lego design” but ” wild multiple design”. Narrowing design to a single design approach is not only useless it is DANGEROUS . Picking a design or a range of designs is not corresponding to a autocratic designer discussion forum – it is driven by selection and market forces.
Connectors between ships and docks are already invented and in use. The standardisation was introduced by the container. The seastead would just function as a floating dock or load terminal as usual.
Nothing is deadlier for seasteading than cut off the multicultural float togehter that is implemented by existing harbors and replace it with monolithic condo ideas.
Unfortunatly the design discussion has always drifted that way – so let me postulate NON DESIGN as the fundamental design. Just put concrete floats out there, mix land and sea based business develop the core technology make real estate deals.
concretesubmarine.comMay 30, 2011 at 5:19 am #13641
Wil is right on the money: “Unfortunatly the design discussion has always drifted that way – so let me postulate NON DESIGN as the fundamental design. Just put concrete floats out there, mix land and sea based business develop the core technology make real estate deals.”
Shape don’t mean a damn thing! Bergstead, tristead, kitefloat, circular,…who gives a shit? What really matters it’s their common denominator: CONCRETE MODULAR FLOATS. That’s it.
PS. Why isn’t seasteading happening @ the “grassroots” level we are talking about? People don’t get it. They have no clue whatsoever of what seasteading will become one day.May 30, 2011 at 7:21 am #13643
Im going to commit the folly of taking sides here, and put out that I think Shredder is correct to a large degree.
Speaking in purely realistic terms, Seasteading will eventually become a reality in one of two different ways, both of which will be profit driven.
The first way would be for a company/investor/group to build or buy a large platform, perhaps with some modular extentions, perhaps not, for a single profit driven purpose, ie GenSeneca’s Kelp Fermentation platform. In strict terms this could easily be said to already be happening via traditional oil rigs, but the difference here would be the platform being home to families and a community of sorts, rather than just workers. This could occur either due to political (tax) pressures convincing the company executives that this is the best means to implement their profit model, it could be due to non-monetary factors such as idealism, whatever.
The second way would be for a company/investor/group to build and sell sea-based structures of some sort or another – whether they be floating platforms, bergs, semi-subs, anchored underwater units, whatever – to the public for their own use. I would forsee this taking place either by selling the units to buyers as they come, such as traditional yacht sales, or by building a pre-made community and selling the units/lots/space/whatever such as the Dubai custom-island approach.
Even if just one of us or a group of us decide to make our own, we will eventually need a design, the thing we are going to build. If you go to a contractor and ask him to build something, and he asks what you want, and you say you dont want to restrict yourself from anything else so you are keeping your options open, he will thank you for wasting his time.
Lets not be arrogant – we here, talking on this forum, are not directing the growth of Seasteading – we are merely having a conversation that aparently less than 3 dozen people are even aware is being had. Even if one of us won the lotto for 300 million tomorrow and started a business building and selling (insert any kind of sea-structure here) next week, and we DID focus on just one single kind of platform and NOTHING else, that would not stifle the growth of seasteading. In fact, it might even speed up the growth, as once we proved the profitablilty of the idea, other entrepreneurs would see the huge gaps in supply and move to fill them and thus compete with us.
Seasteading is inevitable, in every way we can imagine. We want to do our best to speed it up, because even the “inevitable” wont happen without hard work, but lets not make the folly of assuming that any decisions we make here are going to hold back or be detrimental to Seasteading itself.
Thus, I thouroughly approve of the idea of people picking out a single design. I encourage as many different people as possible to singly or in groups focus on their faovred method and research and refine it as best as possible till they have a single unique design that could be made next week. Because, even though very few people know of us now, things are changing, and the change WILL prove to be logarithmic, and I think we should be ready when the time comes, IM not so HO.May 30, 2011 at 8:52 am #13645
But lets say we pick up a single design. Now what? There is no money,… Is it me, or the sequence of events it’s a bit screwed up here? Since most of the designs presented here are scalable, aren’t we suposed to pick a design according to the size of our investment capital? Our capital is 0, zero, nada. What’s the purpose of picking up a design if we can’t build it?
Emm, attempts where made before to get the wheel moving. I started this thread, http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/community/general-chat/seasteading-start-budget, Wil started this thread, http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/community/feedback-tsi/anybody-interested-floating-out-somethingor-just-talking-abou. Nothing happened man. It is every seasteader for himself, so far.
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