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Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

This topic contains 162 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 163 total)
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  • #10730

    ocean, the cost of dynamic station keeping are prohibitive. Althogh i see anchoring at 4000m (average ocean depth) as very possible, i agree that as seastead should profit from the ocean wherever it can – why give away the profit of mobility.

    Happens that for a ship-like structure the cost of mobility is high some 3 horsepower per ton of displacement as usual for yachts – this sums to incredible engine cost and fuel need for a structure like the freedom ship which is a “glorified version” of a cruiseship.

    Afortunatly there is a way out of this dilema you can combine very low cost of locomotion with full scale mobility – mother nature made a model for it – the whale. As soon as you have a submerged structure with little or no attack surface for wind you can go with incredible small engines. Whale energetics studies suggest that whales cruise at 5-7 knots with only 50 horsepower for a 200 ton structure.

    The cost of locomotion for a structure that is only submerged to a depth of its hull diameter is 5 times lower than on the surface. Whale studies suggest that whales do those epic voyages crossing oceans mostly because living in a spot or doing a ocean crossing voyage comes to almost the same energy need.

    For a submerged floating habitat this would mean that your engine has just to be big enough to cover your comfort electrics, and you would only need a small rest for locomotion. A 200 ton habitat equivalent of a 68 squaremeter apartment in living space would be fine with a 50hp engine – to cover comfort electrics and locomotion at 5-7 knots at snorkel depth. This would be really affordable long range cruising maintainig “leave coffee cup on table” conditions in the most severe storms.

    So i would advocte not to dismiss out of hand the “submerged cruising snorkel seastead” with its superior quality in cruising cost, its by far better storm comfort, its superior load capacity. The concept of submerged or mostly submerged was dismissed on the forums because of alleged “high cost” dark “bunker living space”, and general “too far fetched” perception. All this is not the case if you think the concept really trough. It would be a great concept for a whale like “ocean wanderer” .

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #10732
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    about the subs. I had no idea,…I’m a surface dweller, lol. I am not against subseasteads, nor a fan. Is just that very few people will go for subseasteads. Now, when I said “mobile”, I didnt mean that we gonna run this babies on a plane @ 40 knt. I meant a cruising speed of 3-4 knt, and a max. speed of 10-12 knt, in case we have to run for shelter from a hurricane. And put some sails on it !!! A sailing seastead, offshore, in 15-20 knt of wind will easily do 3 knt, and that is on a shorter rig (mast). I had a post showing some designs of sailing, modular seasteads, where the sails were actualy semi- flexible solar panels acting more like a wing. But regular sails will do, since those solar panels can be expensive to start with. But a solarsailstead WILL cruise for FREE.

    This one shown here will sail @ 2-3 knt in a modarate breeze (11-15 knt), and if powered @ around 50% of daily power generation will do 5-6 knt. 140 nm/day free, 0 (zero) emissions and 50% leftover power to cover ALL daily consumtion aboard. Not too shabby!

    #10733
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    ocean, the cost of dynamic station keeping are prohibitive. Althogh i see anchoring at 4000m (average ocean depth) as very possible, i agree that as seastead should profit from the ocean wherever it can – why give away the profit of mobility.

    Happens that for a ship-like structure the cost of mobility is high some 3 horsepower per ton of displacement as usual for yachts – this sums to incredible engine cost and fuel need for a structure like the freedom ship which is a “glorified version” of a cruiseship.

    Whale energetics studies suggest that whales cruise at 5-7 knots with only 50 horsepower for a 200 ton structure.

    Well there is also the alternative of using passive propulsion,

    like sails, wave pumps, or hydrofoils.

    they don’t require any power except when changing direction.

    The cost of locomotion for a structure that is only submerged to a depth of its hull diameter is 5 times lower than on the surface. Whale studies suggest that whales do those epic voyages crossing oceans mostly because living in a spot or doing a ocean crossing voyage comes to almost the same energy need.

    For a submerged floating habitat this would mean that your engine has just to be big enough to cover your comfort electrics, and you would only need a small rest for locomotion. A 200 ton habitat equivalent of a 68 squaremeter apartment in living space would be fine with a 50hp engine – to cover comfort electrics and locomotion at 5-7 knots at snorkel depth. This would be really affordable long range cruising maintainig “leave coffee cup on table” conditions in the most severe storms.

    Ya, you’ve got me convinced, submarines are great.

    So i would advocte not to dismiss out of hand the “submerged cruising snorkel seastead” with its superior quality in cruising cost, its by far better storm comfort, its superior load capacity. The concept of submerged or mostly submerged was dismissed on the forums because of alleged “high cost” dark “bunker living space”, and general “too far fetched” perception. All this is not the case if you think the concept really trough. It would be a great concept for a whale like “ocean wanderer” .

    An important thing I’d like to ask about is air quality.

    how do you vent it through the snorkel.

    does it pump out gas (like carbon-dioxide) from the bottom,

    and let fresh air in near the top? or are they both on the bottom?

    Also how viable do you think having plants help filter the air would be.

    The main thing being, will there be enough light to support the plants?

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    Sure once I have the money or resources I’ll get a submarine.

    Meanwhile a much more realistic thing is ferro-sheathing a fiber-glass boat.

    Perhaps can stick in some ballast tanks, and it will become a submarine.

    Though I guess if going through that much hassle might as well just build a submarine.

    What do you recommend the thickness to be?

    Are you willing to make a tutorial about making concrete submarines?

    What is the recommended minimum thickness for a ferrocement submarine?

    For a depth of 30 or 50 meters, a depth from which can safely surface.

    I know you like to use concrete, though I don’t know how you do it.

    I’m not willing to use temporary molds that will later be thrown away.

    So ferrocement seems like a good option,

    though perhaps we can make a hybrid technique,

    that uses ferrocement skin and poured concrete stuffing.

    The main advantage of surface steading,

    is that you have extra space, readily accessible air.

    and the speed of the wind.

    If I’m to have a submarine, I’d like the fuel to be renewable.

    So that I can’t run out of fuel in the middle of the ocean.

    So for instance can probably use submergible solar panels.

    I’m not really sure of any other sources of renewable energy for submarines.

    Also if we do any activities like fishing, farming, or even scuba diving, we’d have to surface.

    If we spend lots of time on the surface, then we’d want a surface boat.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10773

    you can see a submerged living space as a spar buoy where you reduce the platform above the water to almost nothing and move its living space into the leg making the submarine part bigger – then you thin out the connection between leg and platform so it becomes just a small tubular structure that has as only function to let pass the air (call it snorkel) – you should let go the idea that a surface boat and submarine is a completly different thing – there are all kind of blended concepts possible and in use today.

    Our submarine prototype when it is surfaced becomes very much a “platformless semisubmersible platform”, where the living space is down in the leg and the sail (tower) can be seen as a “leg stump”

    Happens that drilling platforms of the semisubmersible type are technically a “land based drill tower installation standing on two submarine hulls”. It is obvious why the oil industry needs a drill tower and the asociated platform. But why do WE need it for seasteading?

    Especially if the living space beneath the surface is so well lighted, storm protected, wave stabilized, water cooled/heated in other words – much better than a weather exposed platform on open sea.

    And best thing – a 18m concrete shell structure of apartment size (as shown in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch ) made in concrete shell is much much more economic to build and maintain than a similar sized standard yacht.

    Of course you can see it as a “submarine” – but see it just as “half of the underwater part of a semisubmersible drilling platform” there is no need to break the link with the surface – you can get the best of all worlds – fresh air from surface- protection from submarine. Low building material, maintenance, cost from heavy concrete shell building. You just need to avoid the “mental submarine block” – it is still just a “boat” with normal boating installations and interior. Nothing of the “tech and war stuff” normally asociated with “submarines”. See it as a semisubmerged houseboat for open water use if you do not like submarines.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #10845
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    is impressive, to say the least, and the wave tank simulator results are remarkable. For the purpose of seasteading maybe a hybrid design, platform-spar, inspired by the Seaorbiter lines, might be the solution we all are looking for. But the Seaorbiter was designed for underwater exploration, not seasteading. Adding the platform will allow us to conduct seasteading related business activities @ the sea level, which is very important. Also the platform will add to the structure’s already remarkable stability. This is what I had in mind. Pls feel free to comment.

    #10899
    Avatar of J.L.-Frusha
    J.L.-Frusha
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    is impressive, to say the least, and the wave tank simulator results are remarkable. For the purpose of seasteading maybe a hybrid design, platform-spar, inspired by the Seaorbiter lines, might be the solution we all are looking for. But the Seaorbiter was designed for underwater exploration, not seasteading. Adding the platform will allow us to conduct seasteading related business activities @ the sea level, which is very important. Also the platform will add to the structure’s already remarkable stability. This is what I had in mind. Pls feel free to comment.

    Seaorbiter is both above and below the waterline, not submersible…

    Later,

    J.L.F.

    Never be afraid to try something new…

    Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic.

    #10905

    What i would like to mention on seaorbiter, spar, flipship, is that you should have a closer look to “living space distribution” just have a look at a 200ton tubular structure that is distributed horizontally (submersible hull) (video inside hull) look especially on – how a person enters, how the windows are distributed, how daylight comes in, it is very similar to a yacht. – then imagine it for a moment standing up vertically – imagine how space distribution, stairways, windows, light, walkaround and general living conditions, would be now. I fear it would be like living in a lighthouse (90% of the living space used up by stairs).

    A vertical concept would work much better if it is big – so you can have horizontally distributed floors like a skyscrapper.

    For any design it is important to try to get a realistic perception of the spaces by doing a kind of “mock up” of the space distribution in a early state of design.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #10906
    Avatar of Jack
    Jack
    Participant

    NICE ONE OCEANPOLIS!

    I like it Could be good for village sized seasteads embarking on trade? that would link up to the City size seastead nice.

    Is this thing for 100 or so people?

    Thats a valid point ellmer.

    However maybe the “lighthouse” problem could be mitigated by using mainly electric lifts, & Jefferies tubes for emergancies.

    but i do like the concept. although maybe the lower section of the primary hull could be shaped up out of the water like a plate that would give you more speed.

    #10908
    Avatar of Pastor_Jason
    Pastor_Jason
    Participant

    Been lurking off and on for several months. I pursued Wil (Ellmer) last year regarding the concrete subs. 331 per ton of displacement is a great cost. Once this option became available I began to set my budgets on it, as clearly it is the best current solution that is in active use right now. I’m not a fan of large scale solutions… they will pop up once many of us use small scale single family solutions to float.

    While my business is being adjusted to function in a floating lifestyle I am begining to gather my resources to make the ‘plunge’ into submersible living. I am posting today to encourage Wil… your solution works. I for one will be joining you soon in real seasteading rather than just talking about it on forums. Which is why I cut back to lurking… concrete subs were the answer I was looking for. Sea-steading isn’t a mental exercise, it’s a real need. When one is in need, one stops looking once a solution is found.

    My concern is for my children. They will grow up floating. When it is time for them to go off on their own, how difficult will it be to send them off on their own sub without having to make landfall? I’ll have to purchase the steel ( no floating method of developing this that I’ve heard of). I can create cement using naturally available substances, then mix it with sand gathered in the shallows to produce concrete. Computers, engines and the like will also have to be sourced from a land business until enough of us float to make some real industry.

    I recall our conversations regarding your techniques and know this is not the place to discuss them. However I’d be curious for a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on whether you think you’d be able to replicate those techniques afloat if you had the proper equipment and space. I can see a grand party every year as thousands of sub-steads congregate around Cartagena to trade, take up sand and build the next generation of subs while the weather is seasonally calm.

    Might even call it “Celebre el Dia Fundador Wil” or something… =)

    Live Well!

    #10909
    Avatar of ssteve
    ssteve
    Participant

    The great thing about a vertical arrangement is the opportunity to keep fit, climbing ladders to go up, and maybe coming down on a firemans/strippers pole.

    #10910
    Avatar of Farmer
    Farmer
    Participant

    Is this one Holy?

    These are getting close to perfect. Submersible and therefore weatherproof but with lots of flat living space.

    #11218

    The TSI approach to make living at sea enjoyable is to make it BIG – making a structure big to avoid wave movements is a widley applied method. Small structures are safe in big waves because they track the waves (follow their movements) – what makes small structures safe (the movements) is exactly what makes the crew seasick – So the conclusion that TSI is parting from is either it is big or you have seasick people on board.

    I would say that there is a “third way” where you can have small structures that do not track the waves, avoid seasickness, and are perfectly save – submerged structures.

    It is for a good reason that when you are out on the ocean you have an “empty horizon” – have you ever thought why Nature never developed a surface swimming animal? all animals living in the high seas are submerged or flying- maybe this is so because the surface is just not a great place to live on.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11224
    Avatar of Carl-Pålsson
    Carl-Pålsson
    Participant

    That the surface is a great place to live on is demonstrated by the many cruise ships traveling the oceans all the time.

    I don’t think big or small is the question. I think the key is making it FAST. This way you can avoid bad weather by going somewhere else.

    Submerged – very good stability-wise I am sure. But kind of boring after a while without sunlight or seeing the sky perhaps. And it seems difficult to make a submersible seastead the size of a cruise- or container ship, so you can get something of a community going with a variety of residential and commercial areas within walking distance (without donning scuba gear and going through an airlock).

    Having said that I believe submarines can be a vital part of a seastead economy. I’m just not entirely sold on basing a whole project on them.

    The TSI approach to make living at sea enjoyable is to make it BIG – making a structure big to avoid wave movements is a widley applied method. Small structures are safe in big waves because they track the waves (follow their movements) – what makes small structures safe (the movements) is exactly what makes the crew seasick – So the conclusion that TSI is parting from is either it is big or you have seasick people on board.

    I would say that there is a “third way” where you can have small structures that do not track the waves, avoid seasickness, and are perfectly save – submerged structures.

    It is for a good reason that when you are out on the ocean you have an “empty horizon” – have you ever thought why Nature never developed a surface swimming animal? all animals living in the high seas are submerged or flying- maybe this is so because the surface is just not a great place to live on.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #11227

    Not sure that a cruiseship is a great argument for surface platforms – people live protected inside the ship not so much on open decks – which (for a good reason) are only relative small areas… used mostly when the ship is in the harbor.

    Moving around fast in front of the weather is prohibitive in cost – USD 120/day/person. (cruisship rates).

    Submerged is not “without sunlight” check the inside of our submerged structures ( http://www.youtube.com/watch ) – submerged structures can have decks for sunbathing – but why not take the tropical island shuttle boat and picknick on the beach when the weather is good.

    Most city apartments don’t have a big balcony either and less light from above than our submerged structures.

    It is not difficult to build a submerged structures of the size of a cruiship submerged concrete shell structures the size of a cruiseship are in use as we speak (oil/gas industy, tunnels, bridge pylons, etc…)

    Submerged does not mean that you have no connection to the surface – it does only mean that MOST of the volume is underwater. So scuba gear does not necessary.

    Consider it just the leg of a semisubmersible platform – without the platform – living in the leg.

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    submerged concrete structures light conditions

    #11252
    Avatar of Snowmeow
    Snowmeow
    Participant

    ellmer - http://yook3.com wrote:
    Consider it just the leg of a semisubmersible platform – without the platform – living in the leg.

    submerged concrete structures light conditions

    Why not, two long “legs”, one beside the other, and a living space above them, too?

    ______________________________________

    “A Dream you dream Alone, is a Dream you dream Alone; But a Dream you dream Together becomes Reality.” Raul Seixas

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