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Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

This topic contains 162 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 3 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 163 total)
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  • #10694
    Profile photo of xns
    xns
    Participant

    I should point out that, the larger your module, the more dependent you’re going to be on land based industries. And that means it’s easier to existing governments to pull the plug on your new nation. It also means higher costs as far as startup goes. Whereas the smaller the module, the easier it is for the new nation to begin producing their own out on the sea.

    The other issue with large modules is that they’ll either require their own propulsion or a fleet of tugs to move them. Small modules can be move by pleasure craft already owned by the prospective seasteader. Having said that though, I should point out that the only real thing stopping us now is the cost of anchoring/station keeping once the seabed is past a few hundred meters.

    And on the topic of space, I’d actually come to the conclusion that a single family would need at least 10,000sqft to not only be independent of food imports, but also produce enough that they can export it to finance their seastead. Mind you, this means 10,000sqft of LAND. Which by my count, would only cost $200,000. A small sum compared to the cost of a house. And it makes the important transition from depreciating to appreciating asset.

    I believe it was Livefreeortry that said we don’t want to confine large numbers of people to small spaces because that eventually leads to the kind of “For the good of the group” decision making we’re all trying to get away from in the first place.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #10695

    Ocean, how much space needs a human to exist? – The current land based housing market gives the answer, as much as one can afford. In japan people are “stored” overnight in “box hotels” a average student in a european city is happy to call 40 squarementer (no balcony-no park) his home.

    So as soon as our waterbased construction can meet the average european, US, asian housing prices in cost per squaremeter/cubic meter, we will be fine. Those price levels are a direct function of what a individual or a family can earn, can afford, can accomodate – best thing is, the finance muscle behind that market is massive – because there are millions of individuals with their housing needs behind it.

    Yes, European Submarine Sturctures AB can build floating and submerged shell structures that meet those prices 331 Euro per cubic meter living space for submerged units – less for floating units.

    We have a 6m diameter shell float of 9ton of weight, and 23 ton of displacement at 2979 Euro in our program. This would be the size of a “student apartment” in living space.

    The submerged Habitat we built for Ian is the space equivalent of a 68 squaremeter apartment. So we are already there, and mass production can still lower the prices.

    The key is that we produce those structures in south america where labor cost is low – the difference in labor cost south america – US is about factor 10.

    Ians submerged Habitat has about 6000 workhours invested.

    Video of the submerged habitat in raw building inside outside : http://www.youtube.com/watch

    Video of a surface floating shell of about 20m diameter: imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/marine/image/lens.htm

    Wil

    concretesubmarine.com

    European Submarine Structures AB

    #10696

    livefreerotry – easy fit parts will play a important role. I think it is important that we find a way to interconnect all the DIFFERENT easy fit sistems that has been suggested on the threads so far. I don’t see it how we can obligate everybody on a seastead to go with one single standard module – this would require a kind of “maoisitic mentality” as xns mentioned. It is also of essence that a family unit can not only have the shape and size that a owner wants, it must also be possible to keep a “socially healthy distance” from you neighbours.

    This is why i am a bit sceptic about “closed tiling concepts” that require “maoisation of units” and living with your neighbour at arm distance. Happens that DISTANCE of units is not only a social healty thing it is also a good thing for technical reasons to maintain FLEXIBILITY in the connections – the longer and thinner connections between units are the more flexible they become – the easier it becomes to avoid grinding between units.

    A seasteader should be able to choose the sistem he uses to build his home, like in landbased construction, you can go for a container house, but you should not be obligated to do so, you can build individualistic but ist is expensive. We should be able to choose from a variety of floating sistems and be able to connect them all together no matter what size and make.

    An here comes in what xns is mentioning – it might be quite easy to start with something that is percieved in the public eye as a “floating marina” with a clubhouse in first place, then exteded to “several houses”, then extended to a “floating marina district” with hundreds of interconnected “houseboats” – becomming a independent community – in a gradual way so no one CAN pull the plug because there is no “moment of implementation”. It could start in a protected bay near a existing city, finally grow out to open ocean and cut ties with the land completly floating to EEZ.

    All the parts even floating districts do already exist – we just have to “oil the process” and give really good “float options” and “shell purchase options” into the housebuilders hands, do some lobbying in politics and things will happen.

    At the moment anybody who wants a “private floating living space” has to purchase from “yacht industry” and this is something only a few can afford. I think we can do much better.

    #10698
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “I should point out that, the larger your module, the more dependent you’re going to be on land based industries. And that means it’s easier to existing governments to pull the plug on your new nation.” Not quite so,… I would say the bigger the seastead the higher self-sufficiency, given the fact that we wont pack it with people like the cruising industry does. Being independant of food imports, its a myth. There was a post were we did the math, and a 10% self sufficiency in terms of food imports was an exellent number, to start with.

    In terms of price. Maybe $ 200,000.00 per 1/4 Acre is a “good” price if you live in San Francisco, LA or Tokyo. In my neck of the woods, here in Florida, you can buy a 2 bedroom family house on a 1/4 acre for $50,000.00. On top of the $200k that this wealthy family “gone seasteading” will spend on a bare 1/4 acre, add another $200k to build, get power, water, septic tank, etc. If its anchored somewhere, the further from land the more money spend on “ferrying” everything on the island.

    We are lokking @ an easy $1/2 Mil just to get started! And whats the gig? Me, my wife and 2 kids will live happily ever after growing our own veggies 10 nm from land? People in that tax bracket wont dig that man. I work with them. They have a social life and they like to stay entertained. They would rather buy a $100k 40 ft. motoryacht and spend the rest of $400k cruising the Caribeean for the next 2 years!

    I am not pessimistic here and as I said, I wish you and the people involved in your venture the best of luck, but it will be a hard sell, X.

    As I also said before, we all have different views on seasteading. Mine goes along with what Will said, “Seasteading for the Masses”, sort of speaking.

    Its about an alternative lifestyle AND alternative ways on making a living.

    My customer is Joe Blow. Joe makes $15/hr as a maintenance man, Jack of all trades. He’s married w/ 1 lovely kid. Joe saved $10k and his credit is good up to $50k. He’s shopping for a house since the market is good and because he’s tired of blowing $950 on rent. Now here comes Seasteading Inc. in Joe’s life, marketing this: ” Say bro, how about you invest your $50k in your family’s future! Instead of buying that 2 bed foreclosure pice of shit, buy this 1200 sq ft SFS. It will be rafted up with 20 others into a small floating island, ran as a business partnership between you and the other 19 owners, with us Seasteading Inc. running the show. We, Seasteading Inc. will offer you $12/hr + profit sharing as a maintenance man for the whole facility.”

    What do you think Joe Blow would do?

    .

    #10699
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    In terms of living space, 40 sq meters = (around) 370 sq ft, 70 sq ft more than my 300 sq ft estimate. So we are there. Also, as my guess was correct about your labor cost and confirmed by you @ a factor of 10. you are far better positiond in terms of production cost than the avearge US, European or Asian builder.

    In terms of connecting the Modules, I did spend A LOT of time on this one,…FLEXIBILITY in the connection is ok, up to a certain seastate, but then, if its starts rocking really bad the modules will start bumping into each other dangerously close to structural damage,…My oppinion is that the modules shud stay solidly connected into a single unit up to a certain seastate. This “raft up” connection shud be maintained up to a safe limit, dictated by the wave and wind conditions. The moment the whole structure starts “surfing” down the wave and “dipping its nose” (well, sometime well BEFORE that its really happening), the Modules shud be disconnected and ride the storm “Every Module for Itself”. That would imply that each module is self propelled. Its still a subject to be researched and explored.

    #10701
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Since business came as a topic, let me depart a bit from the subject of this post, and share w/you some of my thoughts regarding “the business” of seasteading. Seasteading Inc – a floating real estate development company is, actualy only one of the segments of the whole seasteading business next to turism, fishing, aquaculture, alternative energy production @ sea, marine services, banking, etc. The question that comes to mind is why limit ourselves to only one segment? Wouldn’t be wise of Seasteading Inc. to follow the golden rule of investing which is diversification in all the segments pertaining to the seasteading business? After all, the profits from the real estate segment will be peanuts compared to the turism segment alone…and they are ONE TIME GIG ONLY. (We sell, thats it. It belongs to the Joe Blows now). And make no mistakes, this Joe Blows are not stupid! They know very well the potential of an ocean front property. Next thing you know Joe Blow 1 will open a Tiki Bar on his land. He will enter a partnership agreement with his neigbours. Joe Blow 2 will ferry people to Joe Blow 3 marina so they can go and drink and chase ass in Joe Blow 1’s Tiki Bar. Joe Blow 4 will supply booze (and once in a while some Mexican hookers) for Joe Blow1’s Tiki Bar, and he will get a cut too. Joe Blow 5 will scratch his head thinking, “look @ this f,…readnecks making sick cash!… I’m gonna get me a pice of this action too” and he will buy a fishing boat with money that he borrow from Joe Blow 6 and start bringing in some fish and sell it to al the Joes there, …so on and so forth. And me and you Will, and you X, will witness all this, and I will tell you then: ” I told you so!”

    What I’m suggesting here is to plan from the beginnig with all this in mind. The design of a seastead should follow function, and one of the most important functions of a future seastead is the capability of being financialy self- sufficient.

    I do realize that you, Will might say, “Hey, Octavian, I dont want to have my hands so deep into this, all I want is to make a decent living pooring some concrete on X’s hexatoons and build me a small bungalow on one of this floats and seep a beer on my sundeck watching the sunset on weekends. Or you X, just wanting to sell some of your hexatoons and do the same. Nothing wrong w/that. But in order to do that, shouldnt we actually start by marketing the idea of making money WHILE seasteading, first, so we can eventually make money OF seasteading?

    Back to the “scenario”, now. I do think its a good idea. I still have few questions. What “piece of space” is Joe Blow buying? You mean the “right” to have the Module anchored in a certain location? Here in Florida you can anchor anywhere and as long as you want on the Intercoastal Waterway assuming you are not in the channel or interfering with the local navigation. For X. Why are this hexatoons so expensive, $500/piece? (compared to Magic Float for example) X, can you pls run the dimensions by me ? Are they flotation foam filled?

    #10702

    Ocean, (octavian) – in fact “the business” is the core of “applying” if there is no business there is no large scale, no community, no city, no settlement, no social impact and relevancy. The reason why i wanted to chat about “Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures” is that such concrete shell structures are the access road to “being permanent on the ocean”. If you check any “pioneer movment” in human history the “access road” and the “access road provider” has always played the central role. (horse, sailships, railway, wagon trail, jungle roads, rocket technology, ) – i agree that the business does not stop in creating an access and an opportunity for Joe Blow – it only starts there.

    The “piece of space” you buy is like a “claim in the Prairie” if it is close to the railroad – (marina development) you pay a little if it is far far away you pay nothing. If you start floating out with no permit at all and no “Development Company” backing your claim on the “empty space” you might have the same destiny as “Ephemerisle 2010″ – Cancellation – somebody is against “wild settlement” and will move politics, insurance companies, landscape protection, wastewater watchers, etc.etc.

    Somebody has to adress those “project implementation issues” or John Blow will not be able to focus working on his platform. He will be willing to pay a bit for this service.

    In fact i have experienced that the “project implementation issues” of dealing with “third party” are the hardest part in any real world effort to float out something in the 20m range. As this is true for south america (where i am living) how will it be in US, Europe, Asia…

    If you think i am envisioning some kind of concrete shell structure cast facility as my core business you are wrong. My focus is “market development” and “make it happen”. My team is doing at least the same amount of brainwork in “neutralizing hostile third party intents” and “cultivate third party support” as we are doing in designing, engineering, and structure building.

    We can not expect John Blow to do the politics and the project management and the platform building – we need to cut him loose so he can focus on his platform – and has his back covered by a solid company. So one of the key points for seasteading inc. should be giving John Blow a solid starting point. (in politics, credit, engineering). The reason why it is not happening right now is because if a individual makes a serious intent it ends like Ephemerisle – the question is is the solution really move out to EEZ in the first step, or would it be easier to do some smart local politics and waterfront development.

    #10704

    reading the thread i found that there have been expressed doubths about the sea worthiness of concrete shell rafts. There seems to be a “general opinion” that this kind of structures should be limited to “protected water areas”. I would like to invite to reconsider this. In my opinion the wave behavior of a raft or a barge is very little understood and should not be compared to a boat. In fact concrete floats and barges have made it trough typoons in open pacific and the crews always talk about a “astonishing nice wave behavior” superior to a ship of similar size.

    To bring it to the point i would like to invite to see a video of Thor Heyerdahls Kontiki raft expedition – this raft made it over the pacific ocean from peru to polinesia – watch the “freeboard” of the structure, see how it is NOT overwashed by big waves, see how it is NOT “rocking” NOT “surfing down the big waves” not suffering structural damages inspite of the structural weakness of its joints.

    I would say that ANY of the concrete floats shown earlier on this thread are by far better equipped to cross the pacific ocean than Kontiki was – but they did it. Sea behavior of rafts is widley misunderstood and underestimated.

    watch the video of kontiki sailing here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch

    See the picture of Kontiki to estimate its structural soundness compared to a concrete shell raft…

    #10709
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    There is no other seasteading business without the start up “Sesteading Inc.” – foating real estate development company. Period.

    Another good point you made, (and I was about to get there myself) is asking the Big question “…… really move out to EEZ in the first step, or would it be easier to do some smart local politics and waterfront development.”

    Location, location, location,….is all about that. We can build the biggest, nicest seastead in the Galaxy, if it goes broke next year, we wasted time and money. The key word here is OFFSHORE. Very easily said than done, I know. But OFFSHORE is the answer to most of our present problems. No government, w /no stupid regulations, no permits needed for the sake of permiting alone, no state of federal “mandated” insurance laws, etc. Only offshore Seasteading Inc. and the Joe Blows can function properly as a symbiotic political, social and economic organism following the only two, true, market realities: supply and demand.

    But, if you want to go to Heaven, you must pass thru Hell first. In our case, the Territorial waters and the EEZ. “Would it be easier to do some local politics and waterfront development?” From my personal experience when I was brainstorming OSDI’s inception, the answer is NO. The Coast Guard had to inspect the structure (and of course they would have found “few” things wrong that would have cost few $ thousands to “fix”). Then, the process of “approval” by the County Commision, another waste of time and money. Then, OSHA, liquor licence, insurance, etc. YAK!! By the time you get to invest a dime, (way before making a profit) you’ll be spending a fortune an “permits”,…if you get them.

    I would go “full spead ahead” thru Hell, without even blinking, and straight to Heaven!

    #10713

    I am sorry to have to say it that directly but you probably have the bad luck to live in a world area where the “nanny state” is implemented. If you serve hot coffe you might be target of million dollar law suits. If you float out a bunch of idealists for a few days you need insurance and coast guard approval. If you give beer to a friend you need liquor licence, etc…

    I lived in Europe half of my life and in South America the other half – so i can tell a bit about the DIFFERENCE – in a nutshell many things that are impossible in the US are just easy in south america. Imagine to get a licence to float out Kon-Tiki from the US coast guard – they managed it in Peru within a few weeks. Imagine to place spiral island based on PE bottle structure hold togehter with mangrove roots and fish nets florida – it was easy in mexico.

    So i agree completly LOCATION is one of the keys. It is not true that you must move out of EEZ hundreds of miles offshore to be “OFF HOOK” of scanling rules. In fact the tool of choice to get off hook is internationalisation. Pharmaceutical Companies do their research and development in countries where stem cell research is legally “off hook” if they bring something new to the world markets US is the LAST market to tackle due to scantling FDA ruling.

    We just should do the same and move our R&D to countries where “floating out” is no big deal, where people still find the idea “if it is new it should be forbidden somehow – or at least checked by authorities” as a “strange and unnatural idea” . Where everybody DOES naturally anything that is not strictly forbidden by law and anything that is not forbidden OF COURSE is within the freedom to do it.

    Point is going off hook in south america is much easier than going offshore.

    #10712
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    livefreerotry – easy fit parts will play a important role. I think it is important that we find a way to interconnect all the DIFFERENT easy fit sistems that has been suggested on the threads so far. I don’t see it how we can obligate everybody on a seastead to go with one single standard module – this would require a kind of “maoisitic mentality” as xns mentioned. It is also of essence that a family unit can not only have the shape and size that a owner wants, it must also be possible to keep a “socially healthy distance” from you neighbours.

    If someone wants alone time, can take a mobile boat on a trip.

    There is probably some list of things that are on request by the tribe,

    so can be a useful adventure.

    This is why i am a bit sceptic about “closed tiling concepts” that require “maoisation of units” and living with your neighbour at arm distance. Happens that DISTANCE of units is not only a social healty thing it is also a good thing for technical reasons to maintain FLEXIBILITY in the connections – the longer and thinner connections between units are the more flexible they become – the easier it becomes to avoid grinding between units.

    Also the more distance, the more potential energy,

    which can turn into kinetic energy during a violent storm,

    smashing things together at with all that potential energy turned kinetic.

    In martial arts if someone is coming at you with a knife,

    you want to keep that knife with minimum area of motion,

    if it’s far away, there is more potential energy and space for a stab.

    A seasteader should be able to choose the sistem he uses to build his home, like in landbased construction, you can go for a container house, but you should not be obligated to do so, you can build individualistic but ist is expensive. We should be able to choose from a variety of floating sistems and be able to connect them all together no matter what size and make.

    For sure, I think a major thing we can focus on is ferrosheathing contemporary cheap used fiberglass boats.

    Items made from ferrocement are relatively easy to join,

    simply break holes to connect structural steel, cover with mesh then fill with concrete.

    An here comes in what xns is mentioning – it might be quite easy to start with something that is percieved in the public eye as a “floating marina” with a clubhouse in first place, then exteded to “several houses”, then extended to a “floating marina district” with hundreds of interconnected “houseboats” – becomming a independent community – in a gradual way so no one CAN pull the plug because there is no “moment of implementation”. It could start in a protected bay near a existing city, finally grow out to open ocean and cut ties with the land completly floating to EEZ.

    I would like you to note that “artificial islands” can only be sanctioned by the government.

    Wikipedia Artificial_island#Political_status

    Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea treaty (UNCLOS), artificial islands are not considered harbor works (Article 11) and are under the jurisdiction of the nearest coastal state if within 200 nautical miles (370 km) (Article 56).[1] Artificial islands are not considered islands for purposes of having their own territorial waters or exclusive economic zones, and only the coastal state may authorize their construction (Article 60). However, on the high seas beyond national jurisdiction, any “state” may construct artificial islands (Article 87).

    It’s also very difficult to pass them through canals due to their size.

    So if we do connect a few boats it should be within the confine in size to that of pleasure craft, or some other class of boats.

    Any kind of major artificial islands will have to be constructed on the ocean from components.

    As long as the component has a ferro-cement shell, it will be joinable to the rest of a ferrocement island.

    The actual shape of the object is largely irrelevant, as any difference can be made up with improvised ferrocement connectors.

    All the parts even floating districts do already exist – we just have to “oil the process” and give really good “float options” and “shell purchase options” into the housebuilders hands, do some lobbying in politics and things will happen.

    At the moment anybody who wants a “private floating living space” has to purchase from “yacht industry” and this is something only a few can afford. I think we can do much better.

    The used yacht industry has boats for free.

    And many boats for sale for hundreds and several thousands.

    Many of said boats are old, and may be deteriorating fiberglass.

    Developing a process, and having video documentary of ferro-sheathing fiberglass boats,

    can certainly lay the foundation work for more people making ferro-cement boats,

    which can be connected to any other ferro-cement boat to make ferro-concrete islands.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10715

    elspru – (What do you mean by “off hook”?) – going off hook means just to make yourself and your project free of entanglements of any kind.

    Ocean gave testimony that implementing the OSDI project he got entangled with coast guard, liquor authority, etc… we just got news that ephemerisle 2010 is cancelled due to insurance issues. So the real world picture we have in US is that you can not do ANYTHING similar to float out without getting entangled (hooked).

    I mentioned Kon-Tiki and Richies Spiral island as example that the general culture of “authorities let happen” for unusual projects is by far better in south america. So you can go “off hook” and become entanglement free by simply doing it there. Other industries are developing global “going off hook” strategies we should take Patri and his chat about “competing sets of rules” serious and pick the locations of our research and development projects in that sense.

    “Just do it” works much better in south america – it comes natural to the culture. What you fear in a “pilot project” is not LEGISLATION – there is none – what you fear is ADMINISTRATION.

    Rishi Sowa is not really fighting a souvereignity suit for his island he just wants to fly his own flag what is against mexican national pride – at the end he is blissfully doing his island project in mexican waterspace anyhow – ephemerisle in US waterspace is cancelled, and so i OSDI.

    It does not matter what united nations say about floating islands – what matters is what your local port captain and coast guard official says about your project of floating something out you can step upon.

    This makes the get rid of entanglement (off hook) strategy – the most important part of a real world floating development of any kind. Project management is the hard part.

    #10714
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    I am sorry to have to say it that directly but you probably have the bad luck to live in a world area where the “nanny state” is implemented. If you serve hot coffe you might be target of million dollar law suits. If you float out a bunch of idealists for a few days you need insurance and coast guard approval. If you give beer to a friend you need liquor licence, etc…

    I lived in Europe half of my life and in South America the other half – so i can tell a bit about the DIFFERENCE – in a nutshell many things that are impossible in the US are just easy in south america. Imagine to get a licence to float out Kon-Tiki from the US coast guard – they managed it in Peru within a few weeks. Imagine to place spiral island based on PE bottle structure hold togehter with mangrove roots and fish nets florida – it was easy in mexico.

    So far it hasn’t left mexican waters.

    And Mexico is officially claiming it as mexican territory, open for tourism.

    So i agree completly LOCATION is one of the keys. It is not true that you must move out of EEZ hundreds of miles offshore to be “OFF HOOK” of scanling rules. In fact the tool of choice to get off hook is internationalisation. Pharmaceutical Companies do their research and development in countries where stem cell research is legally “off hook” if they bring something new to the world markets US is the LAST market to tackle due to scantling FDA ruling.

    FDA is busy tricking the populace into killing themselves.

    Officially recommending to put large quantities of poison in your mouth twice a day.

    Sodium Flouride,

    Note you have mucous glands in your mouth,

    which can absorb any substance in your mouth,

    including Flouride.

    In fact, for some drugs like Salvia and LSD it’s recommended to hold it in the mouth, as it has much quicker access to the brain.

    Flouride has been shown to be a neurotoxin slowly destroying the brain.

    Also it has many detrimental effects on teeth.

    Please use flouride-free toothpaste,

    like ones with Xylitol as the active ingredient,

    which actually prevents cavities,

    by attracting bacteria,

    but giving them nothing to feed on,

    therby passively starving the would be sugar eaters.

    Also note that sugar, caffeine products and tobacco contributes to tooth decay.

    Please recall that before tooth brush industry propoganda,

    people used “tooth cloths”, to simply scrub the plaque off,

    much more effective on tooth sides than any brush I’ve ever used.

    Can use a sleeve,

    or snip out a bit of old jeans.

    We just should do the same and move our R&D to countries where “floating out” is no big deal, where people still find the idea “if it is new it should be forbidden somehow – or at least checked by authorities” as a “strange and unnatural idea” . Where everybody DOES naturally anything that is not strictly forbidden by law and anything that is not forbidden OF COURSE is within the freedom to do it.

    Point is going off hook in south america is much easier than going offshore.

    What do you mean by “off hook”?

    We have all the same abilities

    to make a concrete shell boat

    in north america

    and float it out to the ocean.

    We can also congregate boats.

    If you’re on private property or general use land,

    you can build whatever floating watchyamicalit.

    Problems only arise because people ask if they can.

    Just do it, you don’t need them looking over you.

    If you ask, you’re shrugging off responsibility and giving it to them.

    Simply do it, and then you’re accepting responsibility.

    Everyone that comes to such an event, can sign a document,

    saying they take full responsibility for what happens to them,

    even in the case of injury or death.

    Waiver signed, witnessed, saved.

    Why have a harbour with a coast guard?

    Does everyone at burning man have insurance?

    Lol! of course not.

    Insurance is a scam,

    save your own money,

    have a tribe where you belong.

    Tribes are way better than any insurance policy.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10716
    Profile photo of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    elspru – (What do you mean by “off hook”?) – going off hook means just to make yourself and your project free of entanglements of any kind.

    Ocean gave testimony that implementing the OSDI project he got entangled with coast guard, liquor authority, etc… we just got news that ephemerisle 2010 is cancelled due to insurance issues. So the real world picture we have in US is that you can not do ANYTHING similar to float out without getting entangled (hooked).

    That some organizer wanted to get insurance,

    is a sign of someone stuck in the system by mental roadblocks.

    I’m not familiar with the OSDI case,

    if you could provide links I could comment more.

    Well clearly there are alternatives, that can make it possible even near the US.

    There are people that have meetings while boating often enough.

    Can always find some natural inlet,

    anchor there and have a party,

    out of sight of any cities.

    There is a lot of land, open territory,

    at least up here in Canada.

    Can do anything you want,

    simply by virtue of the fact,

    that no one is around.

    once you’re out of sight and hearing,

    no one’s gonna give any sensory noise complaints.

    Participants are likely there because they like to be.

    This is precisely why burning man can happen,

    because it’s in a remote far off location.

    I mentioned Kon-Tiki and Richies Spiral island as example that the general culture of “authorities let happen” for unusual projects is by far better in south america. So you can go “off hook” and become entanglement free by simply doing it there. Other industries are developing global “going off hook” strategies we should take Patri and his chat about “competing sets of rules” serious and pick the locations of our research and development projects in that sense.

    The only place I’m willing to meet up,

    is actually on the water.

    If you want to do your seasteading on land,

    you can go ahead and pretend like it’s happening.

    I’m getting a boat as soon as I’m able,

    ferrosheathing it for winter-freeze protection,

    living from farmed and gathered resources,

    geting a group of people together.

    moving to a relatively remote location,

    to create a self-sustaining atom-tribe,

    to get all the components together.

    there is a thing called “crown land” or “general use land” in Canada,

    which you can make temporary residence on,

    and do some various things to it.

    This land can also be purchased at a nominal fee, being in a low priced remote area.

    It has limestone (though we could just grind up zebra mussels), ore, and other resources for constucting ferroboats. kelp might be usable for netting.

    wood kilned or treated may be used for some structural components of ferroconcrete.

    Though with renewable energy resources such as wind, sun, wave

    can furnace melt ore to produce iron or steel, or melt scrap metal.

    all the “buildings” can be ferrocement (or ferrosheathed) boats,

    so when time comes we can launch with our mobile fab lab,

    then replicate to make many such boating communities.

    Once we can self-sustaining manufacture ferroboats,

    then we’d be ready for going on the ocean,

    to spread to other continents,

    and farm the gyres.

    “Just do it” works much better in south america – it comes natural to the culture. What you fear in a “pilot project” is not LEGISLATION – there is none – what you fear is ADMINISTRATION.

    That might be a some brainwashed contingent of north america.

    Though we have free-thinkers in north america just as in south america.

    Granted you might like your political surroundings,

    yet you have some non-disclosure contracts you signed.

    So it seems a fair bit hypocritical to me.

    Rishi Sowa is not really fighting a souvereignity suit for his island he just wants to fly his own flag what is against mexican national pride – at the end he is blissfully doing his island project in mexican waterspace anyhow – ephemerisle in US waterspace is cancelled, and so i OSDI.

    Well once I have a boat on the water,

    can organize something in Toronto.

    There is a patch of open water I have in mind,

    Can probably just anchor out,

    I have a shallow spot outside the harbour in mind.

    For a more seasteading feel, on lake ontario waters.

    It does not matter what united nations say about floating islands – what matters is what your local port captain and coast guard official says about your project of floating something out you can step upon.

    This makes the get rid of entanglement (off hook) strategy – the most important part of a real world floating development of any kind. Project management is the hard part.

    Okay, well it’s possible Patri has somewhat diminished in his passion for seasteading.

    Though it might be as “taking the high road” isn’t getting him very far.

    I really believe in incremental,

    and so I also support starting small or low,

    and then working up to more or high.

    calm aware desire choice love express intuit move

    #10717
    Profile photo of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    of stationary seasteads. Not @ all. They present more problems than advantages. If small, they might “get by”, mostly anywhere, even inside the EEZ of an existing nation (but of course outside of the 12 nm terr. waters), until they get big,… But “politics” will be their least concern. Anchoring it will be very difficult. DP (dynamic positionig) expensive. And the biggest problem, riding big storms, potentialy catastrophic. Not to mention that after 3 month there everybody is gonna have island fever. Mobility is an exellent source of (extra)revenue. Cargo, passangers, marine exploration, salvage, fishing, turism, pulling into ports around the world and opening the doors for people to visit and spend money,..etc. A mobile seastead can be self-sufficient just by traveling around the world. Designed as a tropical floating island paradise, anchored weeks @ a time next to the best beaches, reefs, diving spots in the world, visiting the most exotic places on Earth, Maldive, Great Barrier Reef, South Pacific, Belize, Carribean, Hawaii,…it will rock. Or, go stationary and get stuck moored on top of a seamount or DP-ing a Fix for $5000/day in diesel, 20 nm or 1500 nm offshore (doesnt really matter) for what?

    Seasteading should be fun !

    P.S. A mobile designed seastead can always be stationary, but not vice versa. The difference in cost will be negligible while the difference in functionality significant.

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