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Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

Home Forums Archive Structure Designs Apply Seasteading Concrete Shell Structures

This topic contains 162 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of ellmer - http://yook3.com ellmer – http://yook3.com 2 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 163 total)
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  • #10675
    Avatar of Melllvar
    Melllvar
    Participant

    Smaller units means lower price per unit, which means a lower barrier to entry for seasteading too. I’m guessing it’ll depend largely on locations and connections used though. You most likely won’t be able to connect large units in the open ocean due to wave forces, so smaller units connected for harbors, lakes, protected waters, etc. and large, single units for open ocean conditions seems more realistic.

    These designs all seem like they’re going to get wrecked with waves in the open ocean too… which could be fine, as long as everything kept on the surface is “expendable” and there’s some water-tight area to store important goods (and ourselves) during storms.

    Anyhow, to not beat around the bush, how exactly do you expect this to happen? 331 euros per cubic meter of concrete, floating home doesn’t seem like a bad deal, so it’s more a question of does your concrete submarine group have an interest in expanding to this market, or are you suggesting this hoping someone here will start constructing these things? I’m asking because there are clearly people here who want to own a seastead, but it seems to make little sense to reinvent the wheel when there are already companies making custom concrete structures that would only need to be told what to build.

    #10676
    Avatar of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    making base elements, or modules, that could be loaded into containers why not make the modules the size OF containers: 8X8X20-40 or High Cube 8X9X20-40 complete with locking attachment points etc., and put the tools and assembly equipment IN them for shipment worldwide? The size in shipping industry standard, road transportable the world over and so could be manufactured anywhere where the price is right.

    One thing I would point out about ‘normal’ containers since it’s been discussed on other threads: they are not air tight or water proof. The reason why they sometimes float is because of trapped air in them or the stuff in them floats and so I don’t think they could/should be used as modules.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    xns wrote:
    Would you believe we already have a 2m wide, container friendly, machine free construction module that can be connected to form both spars and planes(flat surfaces, not jets)? That weighs only 15kg and displaces well over a metric ton? Hexatoons baby!

    what is it made of?

    I tried emulating your design,

    a hexagonal prism that fits in a container,

    but got different results, weight well over a metric ton:

    Hexagonal Seasted of
    roomHeight 1.34618822656
    roomDiameter 2.178178320973783
    roomWidth 1.8863577599358312
    roomWall 1.0890891604868915
    Area
    floorArea 3.081617683719671
    wallArea 8.796714033129406
    hullArea 14.95994940056875
    Volume
    hullVolume 4.14843744458252
    hull mass 1436.1551424546

    that’s not 1436 grams, that’s 1436 kilo-grams, 1.5 metric tons

    though it can displace 4 metric tons, so will certainly float.

    If made from cedar (500kg/m^3) it would be about 300 kgs.

    – Mass
    ferrocement = 2400 — kg/m^3
    wallThick = 0.04 — 4cm
    mass = wallThick*hullArea*ferrocement

    ferrocement is 2400 kg/m^3

    please tell me if I’ve somehow miscalculated.

    Coming this august :p Whoring my invention aside, my thought process seemed similar to ocean’s school of thought. Until I realized the logistical nightmare of transporting a 10m wide hexagon anywhere. Youcant take it on roads, can’t pass under bridges, can’t get it onto a plane can’t stuff it in a container, you have to tow it like a barge and you have to take the long way around since some ports won’t let you into channels and fairways.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    Yes, this is so,

    I was thinking of making floating homes,

    that are ocean worthy, I was thinking as long as they are below a certain length,

    then they are still considered pleasurecraft, even if having a wide beam this is typical for trimarans.

    the a 20′ or 6m shipping container can fit 4 hexagonal prisms.

    a simple hexagonal ocean boat (with a keel)

    and can fit a person inside for sleeping and some basic storage.

    Hexagonal Seasted of
    roomHeight 1.03079215104
    hullHeight 1.3493244491779277
    roomDiameter 2.183252835801159
    roomWidth 1.8907524186882194
    roomWall 1.0916264179005795
    cellarHeight 0.3185322981379277
    cellarVerticie 1.137150412749114
    cellarSideHyp 0.9975966129407555
    cellarKeelHyp 0.4432259402467133
    Area
    floorArea 3.0959929349242166
    wallArea 6.751439660638971
    cellarArea 3.0623270277037413
    hullArea 9.813766688342712
    Volume
    cellarVolume 0.38744557229496396
    roomVolume 3.191325216995176
    hullVolume 3.57877078929014
    hull mass 942.1216020809004

    it’s got a little less volume and mass, but can sail as it has a keel.

    can still fit 4 hex boats into a 6m shipping container.

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    #10678
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    of how big this Modules shud be. Mine is that that they shud be self propelled, modular, mobile, seagoing artificial floating island. This is what I have in mind, made of ferrocement @ 200′ LOA. Note that the stern is hexagonal for modularity. The bow was extended to a 45″ angle, for cutting thru waves, also to increase the hull speed (a hexagon will be a ” dog” going thru water). I am not trying to “sell” this design to you guys, but just to give you a “visual” of my concept of seasteading. There is a top arial view, and a bellow the waterline hull view.

    #10679
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    To answer your questions;
    24 fit in a 40ft container
    The material is HDPE, wall thickness is 10mm

    And I should point out a minor yet critical design concept: Hadean sought to create ISLANDS not whole Seasteads. This then significantly reduces costs for colonists since existing construction methods can be used to build homes/office blocks on the island. No sense in wasting time on designing living space when EVERYONE will want to renovate.

    The other advantage being that we can safely say that “land” on these islands will cost only $20/sqft.

    Let’s also consider the fact that nations like the Ocean Citizens Republic will likely be living on their boats all year long and only use the island as a marina or shipyard.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #10680
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Are you planning to ferrocement your hexatoons? Where are you gonna anchor the islands? Are you guys gonna get involved in running these islands or just want to produce and sell the hexatoon to prospective buyers?

    #10681
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    OCEANOPOLIS wrote:

    of how big this Modules shud be. Mine is that that they shud be self propelled, modular, mobile, seagoing artificial floating island. This is what I have in mind, made of ferrocement @ 200′ LOA. Note that the stern is hexagonal for modularity. The bow was extended to a 45″ angle, for cutting thru waves, also to increase the hull speed (a hexagon will be a ” dog” going thru water). I am not trying to “sell” this design to you guys, but just to give you a “visual” of my concept of seasteading. There is a top arial view, and a bellow the waterline hull view.

    I’m wondering why there are holes in it,

    and what’s with the seperateness underwater.

    Yet they all are in the same wave.

    pontoons (like in catamaran or trimaran) are effective since they break seperate waves.

    you might as well merge it into a monohull with that kind of shape.

    Also from the top it looks like an angry face mask.

    if you really want to have gaping holes in your deck,

    at least get it to smile :-).

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    #10682
    Avatar of xns
    xns
    Participant

    Not ferrocement for the larger islands since granite boulders work better for the forces the reinforcement has to deal with, will last forever, is heavier. And because it’s cheaper than steel. All this goes on top is the hexatoons.

    As a company, we’ll anchor anywhere in the world the client wants the island. Personally, I want Logos on the ninetyeast ridge. Soon as we figure out how that is…

    And no, Hadean will not get involved in the governance of anything we sell/create.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    #10683
    Avatar of elspru
    elspru
    Participant

    xns wrote:
    To answer your questions; 24 fit in a 40ft container

    what are the dimensions?

    The material is HDPE,

    the topic clearly says “concrete shell structure”.

    Though I forgive you if it’s plastic recycled from a floating garbage patch.

    wall thickness is 10mm

    Are you sure that is sufficient?

    I mean if this is gonna be an island,

    there are gonna be tons of force.

    To me these sound like little more than large plastic bottles.

    Just like that floating island guy in mexico.

    The main problem being structural stability,

    how will it hold together?

    And how well does HDPE do with sunlight in saline solution?

    If I recally correctly, most of the pacific garbage patch is small particles,

    assuming they have degraded from larger particles.

    And I should point out a minor yet critical design concept: Hadean sought to create ISLANDS not whole Seasteads.

    This then significantly reduces costs for colonists since existing construction methods can be used to build homes/office blocks on the island. No sense in wasting time on designing living space when EVERYONE will want to renovate.

    well concrete shells imply that interior decor is done later.

    so with these plastic bag islands, you still have to make seperate living accomodation.

    A concrete shell structure is living accomodation,

    tht can also connect several together to form an island.

    The other advantage being that we can safely say that “land” on these islands will cost only $20/sqft. Let’s also consider the fact that nations like the Ocean Citizens Republic will likely be living on their boats all year long and only use the island as a marina or shipyard.

    King Shannon of the Constitutional Monarchy of Logos.

    I was thinking of having an island as primary residence,

    and having boats as transport vehicles.

    They have different shapes as they are for different purposes.

    For instance a boats are narrow for speed, at the sacrifice of volume and stability.

    Steads are round, sacrificing speed for gaining volume and stability.

    I was thinking that we would talk about Concrete related things,

    Like what a good concrete mix would be.

    I’ve read that Cement mixed with 80% Ash is highly sulphate resistant,

    and thereby usable for seasteading.

    Ash from industrial processes is often considered a waste product so can be gotten for cheap.

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    #10688
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    “….so if we talk of city block size – where will the budget come from?”

    Well. my friend, I have few leads:

    1. TSI. The “Poseidon Project” would be the perfect candidate to be build in ferrocement by you guys, and instead of 20 mil. (TSI estimate), it will be much, much cheaper, since, if this would be the case, I am convinced that a lots of people will volunteer money and time for the cause. (I would be one of them). Assuming that “Poseidon Project” = A “Module” = the critical mass (city block size) of a future modular seastead, it will make sense. But, not to criticize, just as an observation, it seems that TSI nowadys doesnt participate to our exchange of ideas as it used to do.
    2. A partnership of seasteading interested entrepreneurs willing to invest.
    3. An IPO of a seasteading company.
    4. A ” pre-construction” times share offering.
    #10689

    IF we float out something BIG like a city block – and this is a very big IF – as we are currently not able to float out a small raft festival not even for a few days due to insurance issues…

    What kind of structure (beside being a concrete shell) will it be? – Obviously it will be something that has been done before – nothing fancy in size, nothing fancy in shape, nothing that touches “never been done before engineering” ground.

    So what has been done before in city block sized permanent floating concrete shell structures is the following:

    A – round shell structures.

    Here are some examples the pylon base of the akhasi bridge. A round (concrete cylinder) shape of city block size. Tanks in the oil and gas industry, cylinders, domes, and assamblies of cylinders and domes like the base of sleipner (right).

    B – flat floats rectangular. For marina breakwaters, floating bridges, etc…

    If you check again the video of the seasteading.org vision you will find that the “floats” are basicly a very doable “slight variation” of a concrete shell float of city block size as the oil/gas industry does it on a “everyday base”.

    Taking what has been done already and variate it “slightly” is a good approach that takes the “guesswork” out of seasteading – there is no doubt that you can build a couple of buildings on such a structure and “roll some grass over it”.

    What is not proven so far is the link between the modules – so minimum you had to build a dozend of those and show the “durability of the connection” in a long-term fatigue experiment – who will finance that ?

    The answer “the investors will come out of nowhere and form a commitee” does not convince me – remember that kind of structures need a billion dollar oil and gas financial muscle behind to come to reality – and they are still “single pieces” not in dozends – so i don’t see it go farther than “computer graphics” at the moment.

    What brings us back to basics – we probably have to do much smaller cookies and take it from there.

    So family house or apartment sized concrete shell structures MIGHT be in reach – but it is still difficult to find an investor for building a 20m shell structure.

    Wil

    #10687
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    The hole are just holes,…part of the design, so water can circulate and bring nutrients to a coral reef on the bottom of the structure in the lagoon.

    I dont know what you mean by the “seperateness underwater”,…

    This design did evolved from a monohull concept. But instead of the “cruiseship” like original design, I had decided to “open” it up a bit to create a tropical “atoll” like settings, where prospective paying customers can enjoy exploring the coral reef in the protected waters of the lagoon. A monohull wont give us this opportunity, so, having a private reef that we can take with us anywhere it sounded like a good business idea.

    Now, lol, if you see “angry mask” patterns in my design, chances are that you might be tripping on acid, my canadian queen.

    #10690
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    lets stick to what has been done before and proven that it works! I never said that we shud reeinvent the wheel here, far from it!

    Simple, strong, heavy, cheap, efficient, seaworthy- ferrocement floats,thats it! This shud be the concept for the “Module”. I do agree that 200′ is big, or @ least “big” for our non-existing budget. I also do agree that SFS have a better chance to see the light of day. So far, we agreed on the following:

    1. The material of choice IS ferrocement (steel reenforce concrete).
    2. The construction of choice IS a modular capable float (MODULE) of the above material, of a size and shape yet to be determined.

    So we have to work on the size now. How big, or actually whats the minimum size for such a SFS? Now we have a problem,…because everybody’s “taste” is different.

    I have a 23′ LOA X 8′ BEAM cabin cruiser. 180 sq ft of living space. It has all the amenities to liverboard and go costal cruising and I am comfortable on it. This is because most of my life I lived aboard. Is this the norm? If not what shud it be? Can we really standardize here? We will have to! Because size and cost will depend on it.

    How about 250 sq ft / person?

    Now, what is a SFS? A couple and 1 kid? 2-3 kids? 1 person? 2-3-4 roomates?

    Is there a “under the sun” allowance, like a sun deck, yard?

    How about 50 sq ft/ person.

    Total= 300 sq ft/person.

    Lets assume that the SFS Module will be build as big as the equivalent of space for 4 people.

    1200 sq ft. Thats it. >>> That’s a square module 35′ x 35′. (build a second deck on top and everybody’s living large !)

    Is that the right size for you guys? (forget about the shape for now)

    Will, can your company build a 35′ x 35′ x 7′ ferrocement float? For how much? (ballpark it).

    #10692
    Avatar of livefreeortry
    livefreeortry
    Participant

    Hi Wil, I’m in complete agreement with you regarding the basic questions about materials and shapes. I had proposed something along these lines earlier; basically that we take inspiration from the lego or PVC pipe model. So we could have 5-6 basic shapes of 3-4 meter dimension (hollow foam filled cylinders closed at both ends of 2-3 sizes, T and + shaped connectors etc) that could be connected to make spars and similar structures, and place steel container based accomodation on top. The advantages are standardization and ease of transport and assembly.

    The connections will be the critical part. I believe that welding or turn-buckling the reinforcing steel members together should be feasible.

    Here are a few links:

    http://seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/small-snap-fit-parts-easy-seastead-construction

    Unfortunately I have been unable to make a suitable 1:10 size mould to try a few joint concepts. I’m willing to spend a bit of money on this. Any suggestions?

    #10693
    Avatar of livefreeortry
    livefreeortry
    Participant

    The spam flter is preventing me from posting illustrative images or links. There are some images in the thread I linked to above.

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