Any actually currently happening yet?
April 28, 2012 at 11:36 pm #20207
Any one actually currently doing this yet? I ask since this thread of the forum is labled “active seasteading” and I see great ideas but none actually doing it yet. I would love to see someone do it and pass on their experience/advise/cautions/etc.April 29, 2012 at 4:01 am #20250
At least one I know of…in a lake…April 29, 2012 at 9:08 am #20251
How does that achieve the goal of seasteading if in a lake and not international water? Dosn’t that defeat the point? I can dig a moat around my house and fill it with water from my hose, but that wouldn’t make much sense either.
Has anyone actually done this in actual international water?April 29, 2012 at 7:56 pm #20252
Nothing about seasteading restricts the term to being in international waters. That’s just the ultimate goal for many of us.
While being in a lake could arguably be said to not be seasteading, it’s a good start.
I still think floating just off the coast can also be seasteading, which is the next step beyond being in sheltered waters.
I’m not aware of any in international waters….yet….except large ships.
There are a lot of issues to face and work out before going all the way out into international waters.
Unless you have a lot of money and have experience in marine engineering it’s pretty difficult to go directly out into international waters without going through the process of prototyping, figuring out the bugs, proving your strategies/engineering are solid, and working your way up to the grand goal.
Architects didn’t go directly from building houses to building skyscrapers. First then went to 2 storeys, then 3, then 4, then a few more, and a few more, and eventually to skyscrapers.
Currently it seems people with goals of seasteading are currently at the beginning, trying to figure out what engineering approaches will actually work. Then we’ll need to gradually scale them up until we can be confident the steads will survive out in the rough seas.
Patience may not be fun….but it’s necessary.April 29, 2012 at 8:02 pm #20253
And no it doesn’t defeat the point to start small, and in sheltered waters.
Does a 2 or 3 storey house defeat the point of wanting to ultimately build skyscrapers?
No….2 or 3 storey houses are also useful, and not just for those living in them.
Study the history of engineering and each stage involved developing better and better engineering strategies, which culminated in ultimately building sky scrapers.
Without going through each phase the first skyscrapers built wouldn’t have been effective, and likely would have collapsed.
Same goes with the incremental approach to seasteading. They don’t defeat the point. They serve as a critical set of stepping stones and learning experiences.
Without going through those incremental stages we’d run the risk of losing lives, due to prematurely jumping in the deep end.
And if you want to dig a big hole, fill it with water, then build a bathstead or lakestead in it, that would serve a very important purpose of helping you learn how to overcome hurdles involved in the process.
Although I’d suggest finding an existing body of water, sheltered to begin with, to do your testing and learning. Saves having to dig the hole.
But if you’d like to dig a big hole…..then go for it. Up to you. (Half joking….but not entirely…because it could be a valid learning experience.)April 29, 2012 at 8:20 pm #20255
I understand the idea of building up, but what are the points of doing it in a lake if just for experience? Shouldn’t we be seeking those engineers and people with money to make a big one for real?
I just don’t see the gain of being in the middle of a lake is all. Even township law applies in most cases since still in their township or at a minimum still their county and state.April 29, 2012 at 8:49 pm #20263
I do think the experience itself, without any other advantages, could arguably be worth it.
But I think there are likely other advantages in many cases, to building on sheltered waters.
The guy who built his stead on the lake did it partly as a protest, and partly because he couldn’t find affordable accomodation near his uni.
So for him it had a practical value, as it gave him somewhere to sleep, where he was close to university.
I also think if you use low cost materials it could be cheaper to build on sheltered water than to buy land in some areas where land costs a fortune.
Obviously if you go into the middle of nowhere you can get cheap land, but then you’re far from resources, services, etc.
So if you want to be close to a city, I’d bet it could work out cheaper in some cases to build a stead on a nearby body of water, than try to buy some of the limited amount of, end very expensive, remaining land.
If you build on water you also have easy access to water (even salt water can be distilled into fresh water using the sun) which is the most essential element for sustaining life.
Also I like the idea of living on the water so I can catch and farm fish, and farm plants (even salt water ones), without having to rely on good rain fall or on pumps, etc.
So there are plenty of advantages beyond just the legal and political ones gained by being in international waters.
It all depends on what your goals are.
If you can find someone with the engineering skills, and someone else with the money, to fund a seastead for me to take into international waters immediately please let me know.
I’m keen. I’ll brave the weather (if I’m confident I’ve got a reliable stead). And I have no problem with the idea of being a little bit isolated so long as I can live on fresh fish, and trade it with fishermen for any other essentials I need.
Until then I’ll be figuring it out myself, and building it myself, with minimal spare cash.
I also like the idea of providing a demonstration to others who don’t have much cash, or much engineering expertise, to be able to copy and do it their selves. Makes it more accessible, and not limited to the wealthy people with engineering experience/training.
I’m guessing it’ll take at least a decade after deploying the first stead, and continually working on it, and growing plants to hold it all together, before it’ll be ready for me to drag it into international waters.
The weather and waves are only one major issue. I think an even bigger issue is the ability to provide all my own necessities without having to regularly come back to land.
So I need to be able to grow enough food, catch/farm enough fish, and have enough surplus to trade, before it’ll really be feasible to go 14miles or so off the coast (about the edge of national territorial waters in australia).
It’s not going to be quick….but nothing worth much is ever quick.April 29, 2012 at 9:03 pm #20268
If for fun I guess it is ok. To me his idea was no different than an ice shanty just a different season.April 30, 2012 at 7:27 am #20274
“Any one actually currently doing this yet? I ask since this thread of the forum is labled “active seasteading” and I see great ideas but none actually doing it yet. I would love to see someone do it and pass on their experience/advise/cautions/etc.”
Currently seasteading is in its very early stages. That means that most of these projects are in the prototype stage. Basically someone comes up with a concept and builds a small model and sees how it goes, they work out the kinks and try it until that small scale model works as desired. Then they build bigger and bigger scale models until they have a working prototype. After the prototype is developed and the kinks are worked out, then you apply for a patent so that other people do not steal your idea and run with it.
There are several stages of prototype seasteads being developed by people on this board. From the ferrocement dinghy to a working scale Bergstead to CompulsiveCoder’s bottle design. I am personally at the beginning stage of patenting my prototype after satisfying some of my initial testing. I hope to be able to start the next phase which is seeking investors and manufacturing within the next month or two. I believe that such a venture will be in high demand once Obama wins a second term and people scramble for an escape route.
The closest there is to an actual international waters seastead has been a few families loading up on their large sailboats and taking off to live remotely for years at a time.April 30, 2012 at 3:21 pm #20289
Btw Elwar I’m pretty sure I won’t be patenting any of my designs.
I’ll release them in the spirit of open source with the intention that no-one can ever patent any of it.
I want people to be able to replicate my designs/approach and they don’t need to pay me a cent.
Hopefully I can learn from experiences of others replicating my approach, and that’ll be their “payment” to me.
However I do see why, if you put a lot of money, time, and effort into a design why you might want to patent it, to ensure you get a return on investment. It’s up to each individual do choose their preferred approach.
But the rest of what you said is pretty much how I’m going about it.April 30, 2012 at 5:02 pm #20294
One reason for the patent would be so that you can build your own invention without someone else patenting it and then keeping you from building your own invention.May 1, 2012 at 2:09 pm #20298
From my limited comprehension of copyright and patent law….
The moment you publish something it is immediately copywritten. So putting photos online, and explanations of how you did it, means it’s immediately under copyright. The only issue with copy write is the ability to prove you actually came up with the idea. So publishing about it online can be such proof.
You can also do “poor man’s copyright” by taking photos and explaining what you’ve done, then go to post office and post it to yourself, then leave it sealed with the post stamp on it (not just the postage stamp, but also the one the post office stamps over the top of it) and that has the date on it.
Keep it in a safe place and you have proof of the date you created the idea so it’s your copyright, but you can keep it private.
When it comes to patent law you cannot patent something which has already:
– been published and exposed to the public
– had copyright from someone else
So to stop others patenting it I believe you simplest way is to publish it online, for the world to see, and make sure you have a good record of that publishing to prove you were the first to come up with it.
However I’d recommend doing some research on it to make sure I’m correct. I’m no expert.May 1, 2012 at 8:25 pm #20299
Copyright and patent are not the same thing.
You copyright a specific expression. Publishing an original work is generally considered to be an implicit copyright, but, depending on what country and court system, to successfully prosecute someone for copyright infringement you’d probably have to actually file for copyright.
You patent an idea or concept or process. Publishing it isn’t going an implicit patent. I think that the most it could do is serve as a demonstration of prior usage to prevent someone else from patenting it.
Disclaimer: I’m not an expert in these matters, particularly patent law.May 2, 2012 at 9:27 am #20301
The new poor man’s patent (at least here in the US) is filing a provisional patent application.
This locks you in for a year of showing off your invention and exposing it to the world without anyone being able to patent it. But all it does is gives you that one year to file for an actual patent.
It only costs like $125.May 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm #20361
I’m well aware copyright and patent are separate things.
My point is that, as far as I know, if you you’ve published something, then it’s virtually impossible for someone to patent that idea, including you.
I chatted to a guy about patents (I think he was from the aussie or nsw “patent office” though I can’t recall the actual name of the place) and he asked me:
“Have you told anyone about this idea?”
I said no and he said….
“Good, because in order to get a patent you must not have ever published the idea or told people about it. Once you publish the idea you pretty much can’t get a patent. It has to be an undisclosed concept”
This may only be in australia, but I’m guessing it’s similar in other areas (though probably not exactly the same laws).
My point is that once you publish an idea it’s not possible, or very difficult to patent it. At least that’s what this guy said.
As for copy right law. The key as far as I know to holding copyright is purely whether or not you can prove you came up with it first.
So having it published is, as far as i know, sufficient to hold copyright. As-is the poor man’s copyright I mentioned.
I worked for a marketing guy who used to use the poor man’s copyright I mentioned to get a record of his creation, so he could prove he held copyright.
Registering for formal copyright is a good idea, as it’s even more evidence you came up with it when you did, but as far as I comprehend it’s simply the proof of the date you came up with it that is essential.
But…..I’m no expert on these things either. So best to research it before believing what I’m saying.
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