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Antartica

This topic contains 61 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Ancient Man Ancient Man 6 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 62 total)
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  • #22516
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    And it should be the other way, because the truth is marching on!!!!!

    Hey Ocean! Hey Ken! Hi everybody else! The Floating Cities Project report is coming out on Sunday. I saw a sneak peek. Have you seen it? How do you feel about DeltaSyncs design compared with our previous designs?

    I know this is the wrong thread but I’m gonna throw down with the lowdown.

    INVESTOR UPDATE:
    Ken (and Ocean put in like $20 too, right) as you know I left Delaware in July 2012. I have been living mainly around San Diego (PB) since then, in my truck. People in Delaware can hardly imagine living in their cars, but here in SoCal the attitude is like ‘Wow! You have a car?’. My condo is rented out to a new tenant.

    I had a terrible time finding a job in San Diego, but it was still easier than in Delaware. I finally got a job doing ‘hard labor by the docks’ when I was offer $9.25/hr to run a pneumatic chisel scaler with a company who contracted to repaint the hangar bay on USS Essex. I am still at this job, but now making a few dollars more per hour. Ships I worked on included (USS) Freedom, Fort Worth, Essex, Pearl Harbor, Preble, Carl Vinson, Ronald Reagan, accommodation barges, and I think a few more.

    I STILL HAVE the Bergstead Kiwi model, and components to build a larger version. I would love to get more money and further the project, but I estimate it would take about $250K minimum. Meanwhile my stature where I work is continually getting stronger as I build my repoire. The company has 2 owners, Paul and Steve. Paul brought the know-how, and Steve has millions of dollars (and a house on Coronado). In time, perhaps I can convince them to support my project. They have both shown a liking to it. But getting any real support, other than continued employment, is going to require a lot of trust and respect which requires tremendous competition with the hundreds of other people who work at there. We do painting projects, which are fairly complex, requiring enormous amounts of resources. From capital to tools, man-power, materials, know-how, relationships and of course politics…

    It is a fairly strong company. The experience has been excellent for my seasteading implementation perspective. Turns out Wil was right! This shit is hard and requires more resources than I really understood before :)

    #22517
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Why invest in a high risk venture with strangers? True. But if we share the same goals, maybe we can communicate, built relations and start trusting each other,…How else is this gonna happen’?

    It’s possible to start some other loosely related business first. Seasteading is high-risk and needs lots of starting capital, if one tries to add political dimension the requirements are even higher. Why try to start right away a venture that has a lot of failing risk, if first a team can be made that hardenes itself, so it’s ready for this case? I present the Traitorious Eight for my example, they knew each other and worked together, if even for 1 year, only after that, when they decided that they are ready, they moved out to start their own big business. Even then, they didn’t have capital and had to turn to external investor. For depending exclusively on internal investments, they would have had to work together longer prior to starting a company.

    And yes, if grassroots, the founder will make the rules as citizens and for the citizens and will become rulers since they work hard and invest to build it. Do you know of any other way? And as long as the rulers and the rules are fair and REAL democratic, that’s the way we’ll roll.

    I actually agree with this, I also think it’s the case for all seasteads, grassroots or not. Yes, grassroots are possible, but I bet a ton of grassroots seasteads will fail before one is succesful as a country, compared to the cases where the seastead is started by a limited group of people that are well-known in their field of activity.
    Moreover, why would anyone trust the guys from the street to be more democratic then, say, Obama? Unless they show themselves in practice and in teamwork, it’s not possible to say with certainty how will they behave, and because they are not well-known they don’t have a reputation to lose. It won’t be good when a grassroots seastead suddenly finds that its founders interpret democracy and freedom in different ways. If the founders have worked together before, they know what to expect from each other.

    Yes, the guys from BlueSeed might be unknown, and they might make it or fail. What’s knew under the sun? But keep in mind that they don’t want to built a new society, but a business. Any investor knows about risk. The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward or failure. But isn’t the biggest risk NOT talking a risk?

    It depends on risk management, sometimes the risk is worth it, sometimes it isn’t… Blueseed attempts to build business and not a country, that’s why some investors are willing to invest. I’m not sure how would have investors behaved if Blueseed had attempted to build a country. It’s much more risky, I’m not sure you can easily start up a country with random people without much experience. It’s the reason why countries have age limit and other limits as to who can be a president, for example. It’s easy to make profit compared to ruling society, so president limit is higher than businessman limit.

    I venture to say that a calculated small risk taken into “investing” in a small seasteading movement-business in order to find out the feasibility of larger scale ocean colonization it’s well worth it, due to the future ramification in the history of mankind.

    I don’t actually doubt that it’s doable, because there are stranger things in the universe. My point isn’t starting small vs starting big, it’s starting with a well-known team as opposed to little-known team. It’s perfectly valid to start small politically-oriented seasteading if the team is composed from people who received prior recognition or international prizes, or who have money, or who have friends around the world for lobbying their agenda etc. Such a venture would probably receive high coverage in press right from the start. People like that are tempered with life, and the chance of success is high, because their reputation and finances are on the stake.
    Now consider some people from the street who decide they can rule the country, even though some of them may not qualify to be a president. They may have success, but I bet most such enterprises will fail as a country. Of course, venture funds can allow to invest in a bunch of random startups, because they can spread the risk between different startups with the big amount of money under their disposition. But then it’s a whole another story because of dependence on external investments.

    Regardless of this perception, do you really want to seastead ? How? I have no clue. If you want to seastead, what is your concept? Do you have a plan?

    My plan isn’t complicated: find likeminded people, work with them, get to know them, show ourselves to the world. Then when the team is ready, start a seasteading by buying an island or a piece of desert. For example, how would one buy an island? Lawyers are needed, how to get reliable ones?
    Things like this can only be verified in practice. If a lawyer is reliable in simpler cases from before, then we can work with him for buying an island with sovereign rights. For me, country creation is a long and hard process, and one that needs long-term success. And I should note that, despite some criticism, I’m not opposed to other suggestions of creating seasteads, like grassroots or external investments, I support them, because the end goal is the same.

    #22518
    Avatar of Ken Sims
    Ken Sims
    Keymaster

    Hi shredder, long time, no see.

     

    I haven’t seen the Floating City report, but then I’ve been busy enough with other things that my seasteading involvement has been pretty well limited to my volunteer position as primary spamfighter, plus assisting the TSI staff with technical support when they request it.

     

    Your $250K minimum is your biggest problem with getting funded.

     

    With small investments or small donations, you need a lot of people. If the average is $100, then you need 2500 people. Even if the average is $1000, you still need 250 people. And crowdsourcing really hasn’t taken off yet as a concept.

     

    To get large investors you would need to be able show a solid plan for being able to provide a positive return on the investment, and since there is no demonstrable market for bergsteads, that’s pretty well impossible.

     

    What you really need is someone (or some group) to give you a grant for the full amount, but those people/groups are extremely rare, particularly when you are needing a quarter of a million dollars.

    #22519
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    I completely agree. I need it all to be in a lump sum from 1 individual or an interested party. I do believe in incrementalism, but I just don’t see any in-between steps from where I am to getting that funding. I try to enhance my credibility by looking for other shipyard jobs with higher pay and responsibilities. A few weeks ago I flew up to Oakland to interview for a job as a Project Manager making $85K a year on smaller commercial vessels and yachts. I even met up with Charlie Deist, who gave me a ride back to the airport. That opportunity did not pan out EVEN after the owner of the company where I am working called them and said how much of a capable person I am. I used to think $100K would be enough for the Sebastian model but once you add in certain things and make it seem really presentable, enough to make the necessary $25 Million dollar sale, even $250K could be kind of light. To build the model I need money to rent space, buy material, build a website, order a custom trailer with a nice tow vehicle, hire a programmer, pay some part-time helpers, pay myself enough to stay healthy and vibrant, compensate the Scripps Institution researcher who offered to analyze the flow characteristics, and a ton of incidentals. Insurances, permits, etc. I expect it to take a full year during which many hulls will be cheaply built and tested. Then there would be one final build utilizing all the lessons learned. It would be ready for towing around and showing off to prospective buyers and investors. The worlds first permanent floating private seastead capable of sustained comfort and affordability beyond the territorial waters. The way this project has gone from the start is in tiny incremental steps that have accumulated in the past 2.5 years to a very substantial foundation.

    #22520
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    To Ancient Man

    I think we are on the same page here, with few minor differences.

    My plan is as follows:

    First, forget about investing for a little while and start networking with like minded individuals interested in seasteading.

    Second, immediately start an online “seasteading micronation”, as the “headquarter” of the whole project. That’s where all those individuals interested in participating can congregate and interact in order to decide on the political and socioeconomic “infrastructure” of the seastead they envision to built. I would keep their number small, up to 13 individuals, no more (there is a reason for 13). Those individuals are the founders.

    Third, when the founders had figured out the whole “infrastructure” they will be the one investing their money in order to:
    a. Build a small (up to 200′ LOA if enough funds) modular capable (for future development) artificial floating island (my first choice).
    b. Purchase an island somewhere. (my second choice). An atoll in South Pacific, maybe?

    Forth, when done building (or upon purchase), relocate the whole “infrastructure” there and start operate it as an “autonomous oceanic territory”.

    I have been working on this for a while, the website went up online briefly last year but I took it down due to personal problems since I had to spend time out of the country. But I am back and I am planning to get back into it starting 2014, for sure. If serious people are really interested, I can provide blueprints.

    #22521
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Geez Ocean ur not even gonna say hi wtf

    #22522
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Hi wtf, Shreddy :)

    #22523
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    AM I would like to introduce you to the Bergstead system. It is a floating private island providing about 3000sf of interior living spaces, 2 enclosed boat garages, and 5000 sf of exterior patio upon a 5000 ton submersible concrete structure. The system could be moored from about 3-20 miles offshore. The philosophy behind it is competitive because many seasteading visions take too many things for granted. They often assume it is possible get lots of high-dollar investors behind the same untested vision – never gonna happen. They assume that one plan will solve both the technical challenges of a new marine habitation system AND the social/political challenges in one foul swoop – never gonna happen. The Bergstead is an innovative new type of vessel that takes a much smaller, yet challenging bite into this ‘chicken or the egg’ problem. It will permit ONE (wealthy) individual to purchase a singular portable structure and moor it wherever they can get permission. I hope this would happen off of San Diego or San Francisco. It does not have to be outside of international boundaries. The business of Bergsteads has more to do with building and selling them as a luxury consumer product line. The buyers can choose from a wide range of activities, commercial and/or private. I believe there could be a market for more than 10,000 of these worldwide. Most importantly, while selling Bergsteads we will blaze the trail of social and political acceptability for much larger seasteading structures and communities worldwide.

    You like?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-8nAX9zf2s

    #22524
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    there is a reason for 13

    Interesting, what’s the reason?

    Purchase an island somewhere. (my second choice). An atoll in South Pacific, maybe?

    I’ve also been thinking about South Pacific, lots of possible choices and a nice geolocation. A bunch of small countries already exists there… And so on.

    forget about investing for a little while and start networking with like minded individuals interested in seasteading.

    I think I can bring in at least one other interested person. All in all, it seems the biggest difference between our plans is in the second stage, where I propose some real business collaboration instead of only online community. In my view it’s important not only because it tries the founders as a team in practice, but at the same time allows members to earn money for investing in the seasteading project.
    I’m also not sure if it’s worth it to start as an autonomous territory compared with sovereign territory. In the future the price of getting rid of a patron will be much higher than if it’s done from the beginning. Though I agree that it’s an option.

    #22533
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    13 was in case that an immediate investment would be contemplated by the founders. (and as you would prefer). It could be less or more, it’s not written in stone,…

    Anyway, here is my reason.(it made sense at that time)

    13 x 4 = 52. Weeks that is. For an immediate investment I was planning a small floating “boat and breakfast resort” type of start up venture down in Keys West (the MMK thing), which would be financed and operated as “for profit timeshare” (FPTS) partnership between the founders. Each of the 13 gets 4 weeks (4 timeshares or units) of the whole thing. 3 weeks will go automatically in the business and they get rented and 1 week is for personal use. (you can rent it an pocket the money or use it as you wish).

    The FPTS partnership has solid chances of success, since:
    1. None of the investors has to “break the bank” to get in, it is affordable, low barrier entry. (and exit, if failure)
    2. No competition whatsoever and in high demand around the projected area of operation.
    3. Business friendly local government towards such niche market. (VERY IMPORTANT)

    If you have less founders, it might be faster but each will have to put more money. If more, slower (since will take more time to get them aboard), but cheaper to get in. Which one can you can afford? :)

    Now, if you skip the second stage, and I am not talking about to the online micronation (that’s just a working tool) but about figuring out the political & socioeconomic infrastructure, you might start up with the wrong team,…How would you know if they are “like minded”? I mean, yes, they all might be “like minded” to make a buck or two of a solid business, but what if one is a skin head, another a child molester, a rapist, a sadist,…etc, and one day we will all have to live together on a nice shiny seastead and all of the above (otherwise nice guys :), will think they have the RIGHT to be all that??

    Personally, I would like to know beforehand who my partners are, what the rules of “engagement” are and the penalties for breaking those rules,,…1000 nm offshore. Plus, it doesn’t have to be time consuming rocket science,…Here are the rules, vote yes, vote no, passed, rejected, done. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKES< YOU ARE BOUND BY IT. To me, the status quo sucks! Seasteading is the only way to change it in a civilized, non aggressive manner. There would be no point in seasteading “inside” the same status quo.

    Sovereign it is, if you insist :) Lets just not shout it out to loud and “hurt” certain sensitive ears,… I’d rather whisper autonomous so I can be sovereign in reality. Diplomacy should be our main weapon. But keep in mind that sovereignty would be almost impossible on a purchased island. We’ll have to built a floating one from scratch for that to happen because only than one can claim self determination.

    #22534
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Now, if you skip the second stage, and I am not talking about to the online micronation (that’s just a working tool) but about figuring out the political & socioeconomic infrastructure
    I mean, yes, they all might be “like minded” to make a buck or two of a solid business

    I didn’t mean skipping it, discussions are needed, of course. I meant to say that discussions by themselves may not always reflect reality. A person may think that he has a certain opinion about freedom, yet in practice he may find out the reality is different from his expectations. In the process of working together the discussions will be put to test, isn’t it better if most of the tests are done before high-risk investment? Both debates and teamwork are needed to know each other, in my opinion.

    keep in mind that sovereignty would be almost impossible on a purchased island. We’ll have to built a floating one from scratch for that to happen because only than one can claim self determination.

    Why is it almost impossible? Countries like Tuvalu and Nauru did receive independence and they are located precisely in Pacific. And they probably had 5 thousand people or less at the time of gaining independence. I don’t see how it is easier to be independent on a floating island compared to a natural one… A floating island without flag doesn’t automatically equal to sovereignity, such a formation would need recognition by other countries. And there’s no incentive for existing countries to recognise a floating one. In the end the process for receiving de-jure sovereignity will be the same as with a natural island, if not harder.
    If an island is bought with sovereign rights, then the incentive is that the old country says that it splits off a new country from itself, and other countries will be much more willing to recognise the island in such circumstances. There are also a lot of benefits from de-jure recognition. It grants some protection from being occupied or attacked, a recognised country may ask for military protection from UN etc.

    #22535
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    Ok, I see what you meant regarding second stage. Debates, teamwork and tests sounds good.

    Regarding sovereignty, I did based my comments on the fact that you can buy islands here and there, but the deal seemed to be a 99 year lease… I might be wrong and if possible to buy with sovereign rights, it’s OK by me. But, there are a lots of economic benefits by being mobile, able to navigate and go places, it’s a fact.

    I think it should be whatever makes business sense, to start with. What is cheaper, to buy an island, or to built a floating one? Can we buy an island in the South Pacific for, lets say, $100k? I doubt it. Can we build a floating island for $100k? Hell yeah! Sovereignty is the quality of having independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory. If we built a floating island, populate if and self-govern it, it is ours and it’s sovereign, in my book and also based on commonly accepted international law. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention

    Anyway, where do we go from here? I’d rather take this conversation private, since this forum is about Antarctica…
    My e-mail is mr.tavi@hotmail.com

    Wishing everybody A Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Best of Luck Seasteading.

    #22536
    Avatar of Ancient Man
    Ancient Man
    Member

    Regarding sovereignty, I did based my comments on the fact that you can buy islands here and there, but the deal seemed to be a 99 year lease… I might be wrong and if possible to buy with sovereign rights, it’s OK by me. But, there are a lots of economic benefits by being mobile, able to navigate and go places, it’s a fact.

    I think it’s a matter of price, buying sovereignity should be more expensive than buying land for 99 years. Probably nobody tries to do it, because 99 years autonomy is fine by most people who are willing to buy an island. About mobility, I’m not saying floating islands don’t have advantages over natural ones, just that I don’t see why for a floating island it’s easier to achieve sovereignity. Yes, you can navigate and go somewhere else, but it’s not directly related to sovereignity.

    Sovereignty is the quality of having independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory. If we built a floating island, populate if and self-govern it, it is ours and it’s sovereign, in my book and also based on commonly accepted international law.

    But a country still has to be recognized by others. I don’t think it will happen automatically, like in suddenly most of the countries start to treat a seastead as a sovereign country. So it’s nevertheless a complicated process, equal to getting sovereignity for a bought island, or even harder.

    Anyway, where do we go from here? I’d rather take this conversation private

    OK, I’ll mail you a letter.

    #22537
    Avatar of OCEANOPOLIS
    OCEANOPOLIS
    Participant

    LOL,..I have to admit that I still have few things to learn about “recognition”, by other “entities”. Last time I pinched myself was to self determine that I was not a hologram or a virtual thing of some sort,…Then, I looked in the mirror, and YES,..hooray,… that was a reflection there!!!! After giving some thought to the whole situation, I took the liberty to “recognize” myself as just being here, as some sort of entity. Therefore, recognition by whatever “other entities” seemed to be irrelevant, as long as I determined that I exist.

    If I’d be a “country”, I’d be in the same situation. That’s why I posted a link to the Montevideo Convention…

    Article 3[edit]
    The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts.
    The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law.

    The law that we play by is very clear here. Again, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention

    #22538
    Avatar of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    Ocean u seem to forget what Patri spelled out in some of his earlier work. You can call urself whatever you want to out there. But it won’t change the fact that a naval crew from a recognized country can freely board your vessel and take charge if you have no flag.

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