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Ambassadors of Democracy

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This topic contains 10 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of i_is_j_smith i_is_j_smith 3 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 11 posts - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
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  • #1576
    Profile photo of shredder7753
    shredder7753
    Participant

    I realize this forum is about seasteading, and that “space habitation” is not exactly on target with that, but the thread I started has generated some interesting talking points that seem to tie in nicely with our cause. So here is another idea, that not quite seasteading but maybe u will agree it breaths the same fire. I was thinking that there should be a company that offers “Ambassadors of Democracy” (billable by the day) to help strengthen and promote democratic movements around the globe. Think about Benghazi, where you have a population that wants democracy. They do have access to the internet and Western government diplomats, but how useful would it be for them to have real live American men and women to collaborate with and infuse within their society? This could take place all over the planet.

    Good idea? Not good? Whats your reaction?

    #14597
    Profile photo of Sickor
    Sickor
    Participant

    Most countries that need it are broke, and I don’t think the chinese would be thrilled about the idea either.

    #14689
    Profile photo of indigent
    indigent
    Participant

    It depends on your definition of “democratic.” In the US, democracy has come to mean socialism or marxism. Pushing that on the world is the last thing I want to do. Democrats tend to believe that the government is the answer to society’s problems. The libertarian ideal is that of providing people with a small generic set of guidelines and letting them do as they please. “Democracy” has brought me mandatory seat belts, cumpulsory health insurance, and forking over capital I earn for things I don’t agree with morally such as abortion.

    I don’t mean to sound confrontational, but the reason I am attracted to this concept of seasteading is the possibility of creating a NEW system, not spreading the ones that have already failed the world over.

    Libertarian FTW!

    #14699
    Profile photo of wohl1917
    wohl1917
    Participant

    and don’t worry about being confrontational. Read the threads, you’ll see where the line are, generally, drawn.

    < http://ocr.wikia.com/wiki/Oceanic_Citizens_Republic_Wiki>

    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    First of all,refering to the US as a democracy is a joke. At best you can call it a “representative democracy” but that implies that the politicians who represent the people are actually representing the will of the people. They aren’t. They represent the people who give them the most money so they can continue to be re-elected. These days that can be the very rich, huge corporations, PACs, or even foreign companies. So it is more an oligarchy than anything else.

    So when you are talking about spreading democracy around the world, you have to be very specific about what you are talking about. Are you talking about the kind of democracy in Palestine that got Hamas into power? Maybe the kind of democracy we have in Iraq? I find that countries who say they want democracy only really want it as long as they (or the people they like) get to be in power. It’s not the panacea they, or you, think it is. I agree completely with Peter Thiel when he says “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.”

    I also don’t believe libertarianism is the panacea you think it is. There is nothing stopping the private firm that owns and maintains the street your house is on from implementing mandatory seat belt rules, or the hospital nearest your home from forcing you to have medical insurance before they will take you on as a customer. I find too many libertarians (and Tea Party members) want government to stay the hell out of their lives up until the moment they need help and then it’s “don’t you dare touch my medicare!!”.

    Also, too many libertarians don’t have a good grasp of what it means to have only a “small generic set of guidelines”. You realize that under “pure” libertarianism there is nothing stopping me from beating and torturing animals on my property? Or doing the same thing to my children. Or leaving the rotting carcasses of my animals on my front lawn for all to see. Or shooting you, or any private police representative you hire, the second you step onto my property? Or buying all the hospitals on the seastead and refusing to allow medical treatment to blacks and homosexuals? Libertarianism has some dark linings under that surface glitter of freedom.

    So if we are going to be the ambassadors of anything, we better be careful we know what we are representing.

    #14724
    Profile photo of acotz
    acotz
    Participant

    I would strongly recommend reading this article about democracy: http://www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe4.html

    Well, concerning libertarianism, there are many branches, from a pure anarchist, to a minarchist position. Some may be unable to address some of these problems, but the systems advocated by Rothbard or David Friedman, even though they remain imperfect, in fact provide solutions to many of these problems…

    #14805
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Screw Democracy from start to finish. Libertarian Republicanism and Laissez-Faire Capitalism all the way. Especially in a society where, if you feel like the rest of society is attempting to oppress you ro tax you more than you are willing to be taxed, you can literally weigh anchor and motor away to find a society that respects your rights. There’s no such thing as a secessionist seasteader. Secession is always an undercurrent of seastead politics. For land-lubbers, it’s a chore, if you need to break camp and leave the geopolitical jurisdiction that has become anathema to your interests.

    In fact, we should coin a new word for “geopolitics” to apply to seasteading politics. I submit “hydropolitics”.

    And there’s no such thing as an Anarchist Libertarian. Anarchy is anathema to all forms of government which features a central authority, which is all forms of government other than anarchy.

    I have a thorium reactor under the hood of my car. I get ∞ miles per gallon.

    #14813
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Ellen wrote:
    you can literally weigh anchor and motor away to find a society that respects your rights……For land-lubbers, it’s a chore, if you need to break camp and leave the geopolitical jurisdiction that has become anathema to your interests.

    I still don’t buy the whole “dynamic geography” thing. I don’t think it’s any easier to leave your established situation as a seasteader.

    Let’s make some assumptions first. Let’s assume we are talking about a clump of single family seasteads instead of a large city. Let’s also assume that each seastead is completely self-sufficient in power and other requirements and does not rely on a central seastead-wide infrastructure. Another assumption is that the single family seasteads are spread out far enough from each other so that each individual module can move away with ease.

    First, I don’t really consider that a seastead. More a gypsy caravan. But forgetting that, there are still social and family connections that make motoring away not that easy. Whose to say your entire network of friends and family will want to leave with you? Maybe they are quite happy where they are?

    And if you negate those connections as a hindrance to leaving, then it’s no harder to leave when you are on land. It’s pretty simple to sell everything you own and buy a plane ticket to some other country.

    So I don’t see “dynamic geography” as being the silver bullet many think it is.

    #14835
    Profile photo of Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Mad-Dog-Tannen
    Participant

    I cant actually think of many Democracies that exist out there. Give me an example or two, because certainly few nations are, and even fewer companies. And I wonder, would your “Ambassadors of Democracy” company be democratic itself?

    #14866
    Profile photo of Steffen
    Steffen
    Participant

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    I still don’t buy the whole “dynamic geography” thing. I don’t think it’s any easier to leave your established situation as a seasteader.

    Whose to say your entire network of friends and family will want to leave with you? Maybe they are quite happy where they are?

    The point is not that it is easy to move although I believe it is important that developments in information technology are gradually making it easier and easier to build and maintain relationships across long distances. The point is that it will be easier (and a lot less expensive) to move to a new location if you home is mobile than if your home is not mobile. See below.

    i_is_j_smith wrote:

    It’s pretty simple to sell everything you own and buy a plane ticket to some other country.

    It is not simple to sell a building if it has been stolen/expropriated/nationalized or is just about to be stolen/expropriated/nationalized. At least not for a sum near what it previously could have been sold for. In such a situation your building is basically lost. Most governments don’t outright fully steel/expropriate/nationalize buildings on a large scale. They typically do it gradually/piecemeal using taxes. Those taxes lower the value of your building. It is like a partial expropriation. You can most likely avoid that partial expropriation if you can move your building.

    Someone who systematically moves away from and sells buildings where the rules have turned bad and moves to and buys buildings where the rules have turned good will systematically be selling at North Korea/Zimbabwe/Venezuela price level (ie near worthless) and buying at Hong Kong/Singapore/Monaco price levels (very expensive). He will have to take capital losses again and again.

    Maybe the point is easier to see, if you see it from the side of the one who somehow confiscates. If the confiscator puts taxes on a non-mobile asset which has a remaining lifetime of 100 years he can tax (or use) it for 100 years before his way of making an income falls apart. If the asset can physically be moved out of his jurisdiction the situation is completely different. His way of making a living will fall apart as soon as the asset leaves.

    #14915
    Profile photo of i_is_j_smith
    i_is_j_smith
    Participant

    Steffen wrote:
    developments in information technology are gradually making it easier and easier to build and maintain relationships across long distances.

    The technology may have advanced, but there are still things I can’t do with my wife unless we are in the same room!

    Steffen wrote:
    The point is that it will be easier (and a lot less expensive) to move to a new location if you home is mobile than if your home is not mobile.

    I don’t doubt that. I’m saying that moving the physical structure is not the only variable.

    Steffen wrote:
    It is not simple to sell a building if it has been stolen/expropriated/nationalized or is just about to be stolen/expropriated/nationalized.

    The rest of your post confuses me, so I’m just going to focus on this: I could sell everything I own, pay off all my debts, and probably pocket $300k. I could then fly myself and my family anywhere else on the planet and start fresh. But it’s not that simple. First my wife would divorce me, and second I have an extended network of family and friends that I would be leaving behind. And you can talk up Facebook all day long, but it’s a far cry from hanging out in the bar on a Friday night drinking brews or playing with my nieces and nephews in the backyard on a sunny summer day.

    Dynamic geography ignores that aspect of it, which is why I don’t think it is a viable plan.

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